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The New Hobbit Hole

Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog

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To: JenB
Okay... you couldn't be immune from the lure of the ring, but how does the ring corrupt one if one doesn't have political ambitions from the start. I mean... the only one who really held it at any length was Smeagol, and as Tiger Tale so aptly put it, to him the ring would have provided one long Imperial Fish Fest.

So, does the ring always corrupt in a dark lord sort of way, or is Overtaxed more correct when she said that it corrupts according to one's ambition.

701 posted on 03/21/2002 7:54:04 AM PST by carton253
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To: TigerTale
What exactly would happen should someone else try to use the Ring is less clear, except that it would be bad.

Yes, of all those who came in range of the Ring only the Great Powers, Gandalf, Galadriel, and possibly Elrond, could have mastered it and become another Sauron, but all three had the ability to refuse it. I disagree that Aragorn could have mastered it, the palantir was an instrument, but the Ring, as has been said, was associated with Sauron, and only the Great Ones could have gained and kept control of it.

702 posted on 03/21/2002 7:54:18 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: carton253
Not ambition - desires. The Ring can give you, or so it seems, whatever you want. For Gollum, that's fish. To Boromir, saving Minas Tirith. For Sam, a garden. To Galadriel, a kingdom that would not fade... it's just that many people's desire is for politcal power, so it seems the Ring is offering that only. At least that's how I see it.

By the way, I'm doing the Smeagol Victory Dance - I got 700!

703 posted on 03/21/2002 7:57:20 AM PST by JenB
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To: JenB
I noticed that! :) Watch out for the cracks... Dancing Smeagols have a tendency to fall in.
704 posted on 03/21/2002 7:59:01 AM PST by carton253
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To: JenB
And maybe since Hobbits (even Smeagol) aren't politically ambitious, they weren't corrupted by it or the corruption took longer.

Now, I don't know what would have happened if you gave the ring to Paladin, Thain of the Shire. A Took as a dark lord? Hmmmm....

705 posted on 03/21/2002 8:01:27 AM PST by carton253
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To: JenB
By the way, I'm doing the Smeagol Victory Dance - I got 700!

Congratulations, who do you suppose will get #4100 this time? For that matter who got it last time? My guess is that it will happen in the second half of April!!

706 posted on 03/21/2002 8:03:28 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: JenB
For Gollum, that's fish..

How can you not love the little guy? I mean, he had in his possession something that would make him master of the universe... and all he wants is some fish. Fresh fish... BTW don't you just love his song in The Two Towers. Fish... the ultimate drug.

707 posted on 03/21/2002 8:03:36 AM PST by carton253
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To: carton253
And maybe since Hobbits (even Smeagol) aren't politically ambitious, they weren't corrupted by it or the corruption took longer.

Didn't Gandalf eventually decide that it was a higher power, and not just his liking for them, that brought him to associate with the Hobbits, because their simplicity and lack of ambition made them the only possibility on Middle Earth to dispose of the Ring. We know what would have happened if a man, elf, or Wizard had gotten their hands on it, and the dwarves would have used it to get all of the precious metals and jewels on earth into their possession.

708 posted on 03/21/2002 8:08:14 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: TigerTale
would it have been satisfied with a mere man, or would it have bent its will to be reunited with its true master?

I'm not sure how much of the ring's will was the ring's and how much was Sauron's. If Aragorn had the ring, would the ring's will be that of Sauron, Aragorn, or would it just weaken and all "wills" are belong to the current master. As long as the ring existed, Sauron would be lurking around somewhere. About the only thing I'm sure of is that if Aragorn had the ring, he also had the strength to become The Dark Lord of Middle Earth.

709 posted on 03/21/2002 8:24:28 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: TigerTale
..this poses the question, why would Sauron then be afraid of someone trying to use the Ring against him?

I think the ring represents power and the absolute corruption of absolute power. Souron was evil to begin with thus he embued the ring with evil in it's creation.

It appears that the ones he most feared using it were first Elrond and Galadriel (Elves) then Sarouman and Gandalf (Wizards) and finally Aragorn, Denethor, Boramir and Faramir (Nemenorian blood line). The Elves and Wizards could perhaps have supplanted him but would have eventually become as evil as he; and they knew it. That is why Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf refused to take it up.

Sarouman by that time, had already been corrupted, knew what he would become and didn't care. Sauron already had a head start on Sauroman and Denethor and no doubt was confident he could wrest the ring from them and Boromir as well. Aragorn and Faramir would have given him some difficulty and cost him a great deal more in conquering all of Middle-Earth but would have eventually succombed.

The ring bearers, on the other hand, had no real appetite for power, and though somewhat resistant to that lure, nevertheless under his influence would simply have delivered it to him.

Anyway,,, that's my take on it,,, for what its worth.

710 posted on 03/21/2002 8:27:04 AM PST by DonnerT
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To: carton253
A Took as a dark lord?

The world would never know! :D

711 posted on 03/21/2002 8:27:13 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Didn't Gandalf eventually decide that it was a higher power, and not just his liking for them, that brought him to associate with the Hobbits

One of the reasons to force yourself to read the Silmarillion (it took me two or three tries myself) is to understand that even though LOTR does not mention God directly, the WOTR is just one more refrain in the Great Music of Illuvatar (God.) So, we can reasonably assume that Gandalf's association with Hobbits is not an accident. It is part of a greater plan, as Gandalf himself intimates about many things which happen in both "The Hobbit" and LOTR.

712 posted on 03/21/2002 8:38:32 AM PST by TigerTale
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To: Overtaxed
The world would never know! :D

You mean, like if I declared myself Global Overlord, but just didn't bother to tell anyone about it?

713 posted on 03/21/2002 8:43:49 AM PST by TigerTale
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To: TigerTale
Right! Only I expect someone somewhere would notice that things were not quite right with a Took Overlord. :)
714 posted on 03/21/2002 8:45:24 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: Overtaxed
A Took as Evil Overlord... sheesh, that's worse than Dark Lord Bob, Master of All That's Not Quite Nice! I have a feeling there would be a lot of wings and pints going into the Smials... no fish for real hobbitses. Just those nasty slinking gollum-types like nasty stinking fish. He probably likes jelly donuts, too.
715 posted on 03/21/2002 8:52:35 AM PST by JenB
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To: JenB
...and probably a lot of mean-spirited, evil pranks going on too!
716 posted on 03/21/2002 8:54:19 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: JenB
Foul! Deliberate and mean spirited attack on Smeagol!
717 posted on 03/21/2002 8:58:27 AM PST by carton253
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To: carton253; Overtaxed
What, me? I just said he wasn't a proper Hobbit... all that messing about with boats, and rivers, and that little murderous tendancy he has. All right, so the jelly donuts comment was uncalled for, and I retract it.

OT, I'm going to work on the Green Dragon thing this afternoon, and I won't be around until after 8 eastern to talk - class tonight. I'll try to leave the chapter at the Yahoo thread if you want to look at it later.

718 posted on 03/21/2002 9:01:29 AM PST by JenB
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To: JenB
OK!
719 posted on 03/21/2002 9:04:17 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: JenB
Man... you do a little murder and it brands you for life.
720 posted on 03/21/2002 9:10:18 AM PST by carton253
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