Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
Oh definitely! Frodo thinks. . ."He had hardly saved the Ring from the proud grasp of Boromir, and how would he fare now among so many men, warlike and strong, he did not know."
Thankfully he had a feeling in his heart that Faramir, though he looked like his brother, was a different character.
I really love this part of the book as well.
Ithilien sounds fabulous! I would love to camp there, although I could do without the "pile of charred and broken bones and skulls", couldn't you? ;-)
On Denethor: I get the feeling that he was a hard, stern, cold man - sort of like the stereotype of a 'Puritan'. He was often unreasonable, demanding things that he had no right to ask for. Probably his only soft spot was for Boromir, and once Boromir was dead... but it doesn't excuse his dereliction of duty. For a descendant of Numenor he sure didn't understand the idea of resisting evil to the last very well. As I see it, he gave up when it seemed all hope was lost.
For a man as "far-seeing" as Denethor was reputed to be, he was pretty blind to ideas that fell outside his experience. Like Boromir, he thought in terms of power as a weapon, we see that he expected his son to bring the Ring to him, as a weapon. I think that because for such a long time Gondor had held Mordor back by physical strength, strength became all that they could understand. The Northern Dunedain, the Rangers, also used physical strength to oppose evil, but they had the example of the Elves to show them that there were more kinds of power in the world, and that power should not be taken lightly.
Faramir, I think, understood that idea because he spent time with Gandalf. Hey, maybe those seventeen years while Gandalf was researching the Ring weren't entirely wasted! We could postulate that Gandalf was 'cultivating' Faramir all along, probably saw him and his brother and father for what they all were and knew Adequate was the best of the lot.
I'm using a Gone With the Wind illustration again, but when Scarlet's mother died, her father lost his mind. At Gerald's funeral, Will Benteen described his descent into madness as "his mainspring busted". There was nothing on the outside that could lick Gerald, but it was from the inside that he could be destroyed.
Anyway, Denethor's world must have fallen apart since Boromir was his "jewel". But that doesn't excuse his treatment of Faramir, and it doesn't excuse his retreat into the death house instead of leading the army into battle.
Denethor's grief is evident when he diminishes Faramir in front of Gandalf. It shows much of Faramir that he didn't punch his father in the brain, but went out to do battle for Gondor.
Denethor really strikes me as that bane which is none-the-less necessary in all regimes--the bureaucrat. Although there is something of the tragic about him as well.
The blood of Numenor was thin by Denethor's time--but even Numenor had it's losers. That little twip Ar-Pharazon, to offer a prime example. Two of the great failings of Numenor were pride and fear--vices Denethor, in large measure, inherited.
I know he's not a paper-pusher. Perhaps bureaucrat is the wrong word--conjured up by the title of "Regent." But Denethor seems unable to get his priorities straight, and ends up running in circles, wringing his hands while the darkness closes in. He is caught up in the fantasy of using the Ring to achieve victory, and is finally made irrelevant when the results-oriented people show up and take charge. Perhaps his ineffectiveness is what makes him seem bureaucratic to me.
I appreciate Bill Bennett's phrase (not original with him, I'm sure):
"War is the crucible of our character."
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