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The New Hobbit Hole

Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog

Welcome to The New Hobbit Hole

Concerning Hobbits

The New Hobbit Chronicles

This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.

In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:

Our discussion has been light:

It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog

However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB

Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr

Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog

Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB

Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed

To the very philosophical:

…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla

To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…

…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB

Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog

…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1

Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed

-----------------------------------------

Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom

…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253

Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed

So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.


TOPICS: Books/Literature; Chit/Chat; Poetry; TV/Movies; The Hobbit Hole
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To: carton253
Frodo must feel it in this company of men.

Oh definitely! Frodo thinks. . ."He had hardly saved the Ring from the proud grasp of Boromir, and how would he fare now among so many men, warlike and strong, he did not know."

Thankfully he had a feeling in his heart that Faramir, though he looked like his brother, was a different character.

I really love this part of the book as well.

601 posted on 03/20/2002 6:45:35 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: HairOfTheDog
Oh yes, I agree about that... From Faramir's position, he has every right, and I don't quibble. But from Sam's point of view, who were these men to question Frodo's veracity. Why, Frodo is the most honest and wisest hobbit Sam ever knew... with the exception of Old Mr. Bilbo.
602 posted on 03/20/2002 6:49:07 AM PST by carton253
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To: HairOfTheDog
And he bends the rules again when he allows Frodo to take Smeagol to his care.
603 posted on 03/20/2002 6:50:07 AM PST by carton253
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To: carton253
I like the part where Faramir says "Not elves. Elves are wondrous fair to look upon" or something to that effect.
604 posted on 03/20/2002 6:50:58 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: 2Jedismom
Join our Oscar Night Chat this Sunday Night!

If anyone is interested in joining the Free Republic Hobbit Hole egroup, please send me a freepmail and I will send you the directions. It's a great group where we chat, exchange movie stills, take polls and discuss our favorite author.

605 posted on 03/20/2002 6:51:12 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: Overtaxed
LOL! Yes, that's pretty funny...Sam took offense at that. Had the Hobbits had a bath by then? If not, by then they must have looked terrible, after that trip through the dead marshes. yuck!
606 posted on 03/20/2002 6:56:24 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: 2Jedismom
They have bathed and eaten their conies by then.
607 posted on 03/20/2002 6:59:33 AM PST by carton253
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To: 2Jedismom
That was a totally uncalled for comment by Captain "Adequate." But is was still funny!
608 posted on 03/20/2002 7:00:02 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: carton253
Oh yes! Now I recall they washed and got a drink. I remember thinking "Ah, that's gotta feel good!"

Ithilien sounds fabulous! I would love to camp there, although I could do without the "pile of charred and broken bones and skulls", couldn't you? ;-)

609 posted on 03/20/2002 7:19:08 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: 2Jedismom
I'm not much for camping... soft beds and room service is about all the roughing I will do.
610 posted on 03/20/2002 7:21:02 AM PST by carton253
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To: 2Jedismom
I'd like to visit Ithilien, as long as I knew Adequate or other Gondorians were around. I get the feeling it could be a fairly dangerous place.

On Denethor: I get the feeling that he was a hard, stern, cold man - sort of like the stereotype of a 'Puritan'. He was often unreasonable, demanding things that he had no right to ask for. Probably his only soft spot was for Boromir, and once Boromir was dead... but it doesn't excuse his dereliction of duty. For a descendant of Numenor he sure didn't understand the idea of resisting evil to the last very well. As I see it, he gave up when it seemed all hope was lost.

For a man as "far-seeing" as Denethor was reputed to be, he was pretty blind to ideas that fell outside his experience. Like Boromir, he thought in terms of power as a weapon, we see that he expected his son to bring the Ring to him, as a weapon. I think that because for such a long time Gondor had held Mordor back by physical strength, strength became all that they could understand. The Northern Dunedain, the Rangers, also used physical strength to oppose evil, but they had the example of the Elves to show them that there were more kinds of power in the world, and that power should not be taken lightly.

Faramir, I think, understood that idea because he spent time with Gandalf. Hey, maybe those seventeen years while Gandalf was researching the Ring weren't entirely wasted! We could postulate that Gandalf was 'cultivating' Faramir all along, probably saw him and his brother and father for what they all were and knew Adequate was the best of the lot.

611 posted on 03/20/2002 8:03:23 AM PST by JenB
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To: JenB
Jen... I don't have a copy of The Two Towers with me, but when Gandalf and Pippen showed up, wasn't Denethor sitting on his throne with the pieces of Boromir's horn in his lap.

I'm using a Gone With the Wind illustration again, but when Scarlet's mother died, her father lost his mind. At Gerald's funeral, Will Benteen described his descent into madness as "his mainspring busted". There was nothing on the outside that could lick Gerald, but it was from the inside that he could be destroyed.

Anyway, Denethor's world must have fallen apart since Boromir was his "jewel". But that doesn't excuse his treatment of Faramir, and it doesn't excuse his retreat into the death house instead of leading the army into battle.

Denethor's grief is evident when he diminishes Faramir in front of Gandalf. It shows much of Faramir that he didn't punch his father in the brain, but went out to do battle for Gondor.

612 posted on 03/20/2002 8:14:30 AM PST by carton253
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To: JenB
but we haven't really bashed Denethor lately, and he deserves it

Denethor really strikes me as that bane which is none-the-less necessary in all regimes--the bureaucrat. Although there is something of the tragic about him as well.

613 posted on 03/20/2002 8:19:57 AM PST by TigerTale
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To: TigerTale
Bureaucrat? I don't quite see Denethor in that capacity. He seems a very direct man to me, not interested in paperwork or diplomacy at all. More like some sort of Spartan general, past his prime and forced to deal with things that are beyond his league. Rigid, unflexible - he can't adjust to new ideas or challenges, stuck in the past, when Gondor was greater and Mordor was less.
614 posted on 03/20/2002 8:25:30 AM PST by JenB
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To: JenB
For a descendant of Numenor he sure didn't understand the idea of resisting evil to the last very well.

The blood of Numenor was thin by Denethor's time--but even Numenor had it's losers. That little twip Ar-Pharazon, to offer a prime example. Two of the great failings of Numenor were pride and fear--vices Denethor, in large measure, inherited.

615 posted on 03/20/2002 8:28:02 AM PST by TigerTale
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To: JenB
Bureaucrat? I don't quite see Denethor in that capacity.

I know he's not a paper-pusher. Perhaps bureaucrat is the wrong word--conjured up by the title of "Regent." But Denethor seems unable to get his priorities straight, and ends up running in circles, wringing his hands while the darkness closes in. He is caught up in the fantasy of using the Ring to achieve victory, and is finally made irrelevant when the results-oriented people show up and take charge. Perhaps his ineffectiveness is what makes him seem bureaucratic to me.

616 posted on 03/20/2002 8:34:18 AM PST by TigerTale
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To: TigerTale
Ok, I understand what you're saying then. Denethor's a dinosaur - he can't change, he can't even release power to those more capable of using it. He's very selfish - look at him, commiting suicide before his city has fallen, trying to take his last son with him. I don't despise him, but he's not a hero, by any means. Perhaps in a peaceful time he would never have shown his failings, but in difficult times, we see people for what they are, as someone's already said. I don't like what I see in Denethor.
617 posted on 03/20/2002 8:38:16 AM PST by JenB
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To: HairOfTheDog
Hullo! HairofTheDog... how does the day find you?
618 posted on 03/20/2002 8:49:26 AM PST by carton253
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To: JenB
in difficult times, we see people for what they are, as someone's already said.

I appreciate Bill Bennett's phrase (not original with him, I'm sure):

"War is the crucible of our character."

619 posted on 03/20/2002 8:59:51 AM PST by TigerTale
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To: carton253
Oooh - busy - I have checked in and read along somewhat today, but the job is getting in my way... have to go to a meeting soon for the rest of the afternoon.
620 posted on 03/20/2002 9:03:19 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
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