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The New Hobbit Hole

Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog

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To: carton253
Frodo must feel it in this company of men.

Oh definitely! Frodo thinks. . ."He had hardly saved the Ring from the proud grasp of Boromir, and how would he fare now among so many men, warlike and strong, he did not know."

Thankfully he had a feeling in his heart that Faramir, though he looked like his brother, was a different character.

I really love this part of the book as well.

601 posted on 03/20/2002 6:45:35 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: HairOfTheDog
Oh yes, I agree about that... From Faramir's position, he has every right, and I don't quibble. But from Sam's point of view, who were these men to question Frodo's veracity. Why, Frodo is the most honest and wisest hobbit Sam ever knew... with the exception of Old Mr. Bilbo.
602 posted on 03/20/2002 6:49:07 AM PST by carton253
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To: HairOfTheDog
And he bends the rules again when he allows Frodo to take Smeagol to his care.
603 posted on 03/20/2002 6:50:07 AM PST by carton253
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To: carton253
I like the part where Faramir says "Not elves. Elves are wondrous fair to look upon" or something to that effect.
604 posted on 03/20/2002 6:50:58 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: 2Jedismom
Join our Oscar Night Chat this Sunday Night!

If anyone is interested in joining the Free Republic Hobbit Hole egroup, please send me a freepmail and I will send you the directions. It's a great group where we chat, exchange movie stills, take polls and discuss our favorite author.

605 posted on 03/20/2002 6:51:12 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: Overtaxed
LOL! Yes, that's pretty funny...Sam took offense at that. Had the Hobbits had a bath by then? If not, by then they must have looked terrible, after that trip through the dead marshes. yuck!
606 posted on 03/20/2002 6:56:24 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: 2Jedismom
They have bathed and eaten their conies by then.
607 posted on 03/20/2002 6:59:33 AM PST by carton253
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To: 2Jedismom
That was a totally uncalled for comment by Captain "Adequate." But is was still funny!
608 posted on 03/20/2002 7:00:02 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: carton253
Oh yes! Now I recall they washed and got a drink. I remember thinking "Ah, that's gotta feel good!"

Ithilien sounds fabulous! I would love to camp there, although I could do without the "pile of charred and broken bones and skulls", couldn't you? ;-)

609 posted on 03/20/2002 7:19:08 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: 2Jedismom
I'm not much for camping... soft beds and room service is about all the roughing I will do.
610 posted on 03/20/2002 7:21:02 AM PST by carton253
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To: 2Jedismom
I'd like to visit Ithilien, as long as I knew Adequate or other Gondorians were around. I get the feeling it could be a fairly dangerous place.

On Denethor: I get the feeling that he was a hard, stern, cold man - sort of like the stereotype of a 'Puritan'. He was often unreasonable, demanding things that he had no right to ask for. Probably his only soft spot was for Boromir, and once Boromir was dead... but it doesn't excuse his dereliction of duty. For a descendant of Numenor he sure didn't understand the idea of resisting evil to the last very well. As I see it, he gave up when it seemed all hope was lost.

For a man as "far-seeing" as Denethor was reputed to be, he was pretty blind to ideas that fell outside his experience. Like Boromir, he thought in terms of power as a weapon, we see that he expected his son to bring the Ring to him, as a weapon. I think that because for such a long time Gondor had held Mordor back by physical strength, strength became all that they could understand. The Northern Dunedain, the Rangers, also used physical strength to oppose evil, but they had the example of the Elves to show them that there were more kinds of power in the world, and that power should not be taken lightly.

Faramir, I think, understood that idea because he spent time with Gandalf. Hey, maybe those seventeen years while Gandalf was researching the Ring weren't entirely wasted! We could postulate that Gandalf was 'cultivating' Faramir all along, probably saw him and his brother and father for what they all were and knew Adequate was the best of the lot.

611 posted on 03/20/2002 8:03:23 AM PST by JenB
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To: JenB
Jen... I don't have a copy of The Two Towers with me, but when Gandalf and Pippen showed up, wasn't Denethor sitting on his throne with the pieces of Boromir's horn in his lap.

I'm using a Gone With the Wind illustration again, but when Scarlet's mother died, her father lost his mind. At Gerald's funeral, Will Benteen described his descent into madness as "his mainspring busted". There was nothing on the outside that could lick Gerald, but it was from the inside that he could be destroyed.

Anyway, Denethor's world must have fallen apart since Boromir was his "jewel". But that doesn't excuse his treatment of Faramir, and it doesn't excuse his retreat into the death house instead of leading the army into battle.

Denethor's grief is evident when he diminishes Faramir in front of Gandalf. It shows much of Faramir that he didn't punch his father in the brain, but went out to do battle for Gondor.

612 posted on 03/20/2002 8:14:30 AM PST by carton253
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To: JenB
but we haven't really bashed Denethor lately, and he deserves it

Denethor really strikes me as that bane which is none-the-less necessary in all regimes--the bureaucrat. Although there is something of the tragic about him as well.

613 posted on 03/20/2002 8:19:57 AM PST by TigerTale
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To: TigerTale
Bureaucrat? I don't quite see Denethor in that capacity. He seems a very direct man to me, not interested in paperwork or diplomacy at all. More like some sort of Spartan general, past his prime and forced to deal with things that are beyond his league. Rigid, unflexible - he can't adjust to new ideas or challenges, stuck in the past, when Gondor was greater and Mordor was less.
614 posted on 03/20/2002 8:25:30 AM PST by JenB
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To: JenB
For a descendant of Numenor he sure didn't understand the idea of resisting evil to the last very well.

The blood of Numenor was thin by Denethor's time--but even Numenor had it's losers. That little twip Ar-Pharazon, to offer a prime example. Two of the great failings of Numenor were pride and fear--vices Denethor, in large measure, inherited.

615 posted on 03/20/2002 8:28:02 AM PST by TigerTale
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To: JenB
Bureaucrat? I don't quite see Denethor in that capacity.

I know he's not a paper-pusher. Perhaps bureaucrat is the wrong word--conjured up by the title of "Regent." But Denethor seems unable to get his priorities straight, and ends up running in circles, wringing his hands while the darkness closes in. He is caught up in the fantasy of using the Ring to achieve victory, and is finally made irrelevant when the results-oriented people show up and take charge. Perhaps his ineffectiveness is what makes him seem bureaucratic to me.

616 posted on 03/20/2002 8:34:18 AM PST by TigerTale
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To: TigerTale
Ok, I understand what you're saying then. Denethor's a dinosaur - he can't change, he can't even release power to those more capable of using it. He's very selfish - look at him, commiting suicide before his city has fallen, trying to take his last son with him. I don't despise him, but he's not a hero, by any means. Perhaps in a peaceful time he would never have shown his failings, but in difficult times, we see people for what they are, as someone's already said. I don't like what I see in Denethor.
617 posted on 03/20/2002 8:38:16 AM PST by JenB
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To: HairOfTheDog
Hullo! HairofTheDog... how does the day find you?
618 posted on 03/20/2002 8:49:26 AM PST by carton253
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To: JenB
in difficult times, we see people for what they are, as someone's already said.

I appreciate Bill Bennett's phrase (not original with him, I'm sure):

"War is the crucible of our character."

619 posted on 03/20/2002 8:59:51 AM PST by TigerTale
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To: carton253
Oooh - busy - I have checked in and read along somewhat today, but the job is getting in my way... have to go to a meeting soon for the rest of the afternoon.
620 posted on 03/20/2002 9:03:19 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
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