Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
Star Wars is entertainment. The Lord of the Rings is literature.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Alternately, you might have in mind Jude 23, which I'll also put in context:
And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh
Jude 22, 23
Dan
Sticking with our main Tolkienian purpose, I just realized that in addition to Smeagol/Gollum, you can also compare Anakin/Vader to Boromir. As you say, one can only make as much amends as is possible in the time that one is given. Boromir only had his last battle, Anakin only has his last act against the Emperor.
The Christian perspective on the worthiness of "deathbed conversions" is founded in large part on the conversion of the thief crucified beside Christ. God certainly is willing to accept a deathbed conversion, and to let His Mercy outweigh His Judgement, so I'd say we can as well...
The thief on the cross would argue not; but, lest anyone count on fabricating one after a life of unrepentant sin (as one man I knew did), I daresay a lot of the victims from 9/11 would point out that no one is guaranteed a deathbed.
Dan
To answer a question posed upthread, of course a deathbed conversion is no less valid, but conversions really are for the individual. I was thinking of a public sort of redemption, you know, like what's his name - Chuck Colson? The Watergate man who became a Christian in prison and does all sorts of stuff now?
Well, I think that LOTR is entertainment as well as literature. And I think that Star Wars, while not in the same class as LOTR, also provides good opportunities to reflect on larger themes than is allowed by most movies.
I strongly disagree. Boromir was not completely evil. He was tempted by and desired the power of the ring. But he was at war within himself. True, Vader eventually struggled in his conscience when he met Luke, but for a good while he was "totally" bad. Boromir was never that far gone...
Considering that we're talking about Darth Vader, this is interesting in light of the scene where Luke burns Vader's armor...
Very true, we're not even guaranteed another post...
Well, true, but Vader died before he had the chance for "public" redemption. At the same time, destroying the Emperor was nothing to sneeze at...
True, but I look at their original purposes. I enjoy both, but there is more depth and quite frankly more art in LOTR than in Star Wars.
Good point. Darth Vader certainly seems to have shut the door on any possibility of redemption, until the very end. The Smeagol/Gollum comparison is more valid. And probably, this points to Tolkien's vastly deeper understanding of human nature than Lucas's. Tolkien seems to understand that when you're too far gone, the chance of you returning to the Light is incredibly slim. In the end Gollum triumphs over Smeagol. I can't say without seeing the final Star Wars movie, and Anakin's final turning, but the return of Vader to the Light on witnessing the suffering of his son is probably too easy. The only sensible explanation is that the conflict was there all along, and that the suffering of Luke was just the final straw that brought him back and not the complete picture.
I'll second that!
I do have to say I like the way he "balanced the Force" - two Sith, two Jedi, nobody else touches the stuff. Prophecies are always dangerous to interpret...
Maybe! He certainly does like to be on the winning side!! Don't know if you saw Attack of the Clones, but one of the creepier moments is when Anakin talks about wanting a dictator.
I do have to say I like the way he "balanced the Force" - two Sith, two Jedi, nobody else touches the stuff. Prophecies are always dangerous to interpret...
LOL!!! My wife and I say the same thing! The Jedi are pretty dumb when it comes to prophecy. Hmm, balance to the Force? Well, right now the Light Side certainly seems dominant, what with a good Jedi Council and all. Now, how to "correct" this imbalance?...
I guess what I was hoping for was more of the moral lesson that anyone is susceptible to the temptation to do evil (which of course is one of the main lessons of LOTR). So I was originally expecting that Anakin would presented more sympathetically, at least at first, in Ep 2 so that we would feel the sense of tragedy when he falls in Ep 3. Instead, he's just annoying and irritating, and creepy. But I'm thinking that was intentional...at least I hope it was, or else the script and Hayden's performance was even
I'm also getting uncomfortable with some of the heavy gnostic influences--like the idea that celibacy is required in order to be a good jedi. Then there's the whole "Amidala-as-temptress" message that I wasn't appreciating either. As soon as she gets Anakin alone, even though she's committed to not getting involved with him, and even though she knows he's attracted to her, she starts wearing all those seductive outfits. That part made me a little squeamish about the whole thing as well...what exactly is Lucas trying to say with that, anyway? Maybe I don't really want to know. :o
That was pretty creepy, wasn't it? Yikes. Do you suppose he's been getting indoctrinated on that kind of thinking by Palpatine? I wished they had given us a bit more about the relationship between those two, it was hard to tell just how much Palpatine has already been seducing Anakin to the dark side. I suppose we'll see more of that in the next movie...
I agree. He acted like a spoiled 5 year-old brat. I just wanted to spank him. Especially when he was having his little temper tantrims about not being able to do what he wanted to do.
Then there's the whole "Amidala-as-temptress" message that I wasn't appreciating either. As soon as she gets Anakin alone, even though she's committed to not getting involved with him, and even though she knows he's attracted to her, she starts wearing all those seductive outfits.
My husband commented on that too. She's telling him with her mouth to stay away, while she is telling him to come hither with her body. It was a little annoying.
How are my days going? Things are picking up at work. I get to do some cool mad scientist stuff generating something that could explode if it gets too hot (I haven't blown up the lab yet.)
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