Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
I like the new thread, Hair!
Plus, he's just creepy sometimes. She says "don't look at me that way," and he adds a leer to the lingering look. (Jedi/stalker?) Then there are other revelations he makes — and I don't want to give spoilers — that I think would give a powerful woman pause.
She is to me an admirable, likable character. I want to say, "Wait! No! Don't, are you nuts??" But again, that's one mark of an engrossing story. I'm looking forward to the next part with interest, anticipation, and a LOT of DREAD.
Dan
Also... I hate to admit this, but I like it when movies have a little bit of a moral point. FotR had so many it's hard to even start talking about it. The Star Wars movies are heading into moral chaos. We're supposed to root for Anakin, who we know is going to become a mass murdered and dark lord. That's a little screwy to me. I like good guys to be good, and to ultimately triumph. (Ok, I live in a comic book universe, but the sky is much nicer here, really)
Well, just try to remember his deathbed confession...
Do you ever wonder if it would've sold if we'd seen the episodes in order? Seems like there was so much we knew from 4,5 and 6 that we had to have to make Episode One make sense (okay, to make as much sense as it did...)
Surely you understand that's the significance of Anakin standing there with Obi-Wan and Yoda at the end of Episode 6, do you not?
When Luke says "I can save you," Vader responds "you already have Luke, you already have..."
Nobody sang "Just As I Am" but I think it was real.
Agreed, but he reminds me of Mozart in "Amadeus." The prodigy. Vacilitates between "I'm all powerful" one moment, and the immature "Uh oh, I'm gonna get in trouble" the next (thinking about the scene after he goes medieval on the baddies in the factory and then goes, "oh no, Obi Wan is going to kill me" when his lightsaber is destroyed.)
Besides, he's her latest challenge. She strikes me as the "take home the stray puppy" type. She knows he needs her, and she needs to be needed.
Plus, he's just creepy sometimes. She says "don't look at me that way," and he adds a leer to the lingering look. (Jedi/stalker?) Then there are other revelations he makes — and I don't want to give spoilers — that I think would give a powerful woman pause.
Agreed, but again there's the "I'll help him" angle. Plus, I like that the romance story is in one way as much about lust/obsession as about true love. Over the kiddies heads, but gratifying for the grown-up.
She is to me an admirable, likable character.
Agreed, but I think he is too. "There but for the grace of God..." His struggle between Dark and Light is so palpable. I know how it's going to turn out, but I find myself rooting for him anyway. After the "spoiler scene" you're referring to, they're on the ship and you see him trying to redeem himself, regain control in a way, by obeying Windu's order. Then she, through the best of intentions, leads him in to rebellion again. It's so sad. We frequently see how good can come from evil, it's interesting to see a situation where evil comes from good. As right as it was for them to go rescue Obi Wan, the LAST thing he needed at that point in his struggle was to disobey orders again - especially via her Clintonesque reasoning of, "well, you won't REALLY be disobeying since I'm going to go anyway..." The contrast is clear to Obi Wan's early comment about following the spirit as much as the letter of a command.
Hadn't thought about this before, but this is an interesting theme. The "ends justify the means" vs. "code of honor." The good guys wouldn't win if they followed the code strictly, since they'd never have begun their investigation in the first place. Yet this "victory" is all wrong because globally it is leading to the war that Palpatine wants and individually it is leading Anakin to the Dark Side.
Yikes, I'll avoid getting too religious but let me say that this conflict between the mercy of God and the justice of God has been the fuel for much of the greatest art of the last 2000 years... :)
Absolutely, Vader is definitely redeemed in the end. "The scales fall from his eyes." Vader is certainly Saul to the Paul of Anakin before and after.
And in the grand scheme of things, the ultimate source of the Enemy's downfall would never have been in a position to save the world if he hadn't fallen in to evil himself.
In this sense, there is a strong parallel between Smeagol/Gollum and Anakin/Vader. The difference is that Anakin's role in final victory is willful and Smeagol's is providential.
My wife thinks that part of the attraction is she's so accustomed to being better than anybody else that the idea of Anakin, who is capable of overpowering her, is, ahem, part of his sex appeal. I'm not the one to judge how much sex appeal Anakin projects, however! This fits with what I said about the lust angle to their relationship though...
Well again, not to take this too far, but none of us can undo our past. Is a deathbed conversion less "valid" than one early in life?
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