Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
My experience is that there is no place to go after Tolkien. You started your climb at the mountain's peak, and the only direction to go is down. I had the same experience--I basically started my fantasy reading with "The Hobbit," progressed to LOTR, and then pretty much gave up the genre for sf. Since science fiction is my true love anyway, this was not much of a sacrifice. :)
There are those who will disagree, of course, but I see most other fantasy as a pale imitation of Tolkien.
"The Chronicals of Narnia" stands on it's own, however, and the Thomas Convenant series are notable achievements in world-building.
I would also recommend Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker series--a self-concious attempt to write fantasy which does not fit the "elves, dwarves and wizards" mold. It's set in a colonial America where folk-magic is real and the East Coast has developed as a Balkanized arrangment of nations, colonies, territories, etc. Card being a Mormon, the series is also supposed to be an allegorical retelling of the story of Joseph Smith. Not being a Mormon myself, most of said allegory is lost on me.
There are musical-people and there are non-musical people. I am a musical person myself (in that I like musicals, not in that I am musically talented.) There was a time when I would have tried to convince a non-musical person, such as yourself, of the glory of the art form. I have since learned that it is a hard-wired distinction, not amenable to change--like the difference between those who (mistakenly) believe Sean Connery to have been the best James Bond, and those who understand (correctly) that the best James Bond was really Roger Moore.
As for the "where do you go from Tolkien" question, the answer is, as some have said, downhill. He was the greatest, no question. There are a few who are nearly as good, but not many, and the vast majority are lousy. I love epic fantasy with Elves and warriors and such, but most of it is so derivative of Tolkien I've almost given up and switched entirely to "Discworld".
Oh, I thought of a good series to read, one for young people actually (10-15) but I quite enjoyed it: the Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia Wrede. There are four in the set, quite funny, but they really don't make much of a distinction between good and bad magic, so if you disapprove of 'good' witches forget the recommendation. Otherwise it's quite funny. I believe the first is Dealing with Dragons, the others being Searching for Dragons, Calling on Dragons, and Talking to Dragons. Not sure of the names and order but it's something like that.
So I noticed.
Is the Discworld series really that good? I have a friend who thinks it's great, and Hal Clement (an sf author I respect) is also a fan. The series has always looked to me to be absurdist--sort of in the tradition of "The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy" and the Xanth series. I like both of these bodies of work, but absurdism is not my theme of choice. So I have avoided Discworld. Am I making a mistake?
BTW--I think you are right on target regarding the confusion of fantasy and sf. It really bugs me when librarians and book-stores put them in the same section (which is all the time, basically.):
"Let's see--they're both about stuff that isn't real, so they must be the same genre."
Grrr...
I am sure that you have noticed that the campaign for Oscars this year has gotten down to the level of a campaign for alderman in Chicago! Perhaps it will cancel out, since there have been no attacks on Hobbits yet (this sort of thing seems to be saved for Free Republic)!
Kind of explains why the Great Generation, of the Depression and WWII were parents to the Baby Boom generation of Bill Clinton, doesn't it. (Not that generalities about a generation apply to everyone it that generation, of course)
Yes, but remember the ending of the previous book of the Bible, Judges, in which after describing how the tribe of Benjamin had almost been destroyed due to its evil and perverted ways, it says 'In those days there was no king in Israel; all the people did what was right in their own eyes.' This was not meant as praise. It seems that the people of Israel were no longer fit to live in a non-monarchical state.
If you want to read material which is at least as good as Tolkien, I am afraid you will have to turn to the classics: The Oddessey, The Illiad, Beowulf.
Michael Medved talked about the dirty campaign tricks this year for the Oscars today (the trashing of A Beautiful Mind) anyone hear it? I didn't - just the very tail end. Wondered how he/they think it affects FoTR..
Anyone else having problems with Yahoo - like their whole server being down? I was trying to check my email, and I can't, and it looks like our chat is inaccessible.
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