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"There's no heat- it's a discussion!" LOL! Good for you. But try this on: it does seem that everyone's analysis of Boromir is based on what others thought of him, expected of him, feared about him, etc. My only point is that the change in Boromir as he attempts to take the ring indicates the influence of an external power, and thus suggests that his actions weren't anything he was "planning" all throughout the journey: '"Miserable trickster!" he shouted. "Let me get my hands on you! Now I see your mind. You will take the Ring to Sauron and sell us all. You have only waited your chance to leave us in the lurch. Curse you and all Halflings to death and darkness!" Then, catching his foot on a stone, he fell sprawling and lay upon his face. For a while he was still as if his own curse had struck him down; then suddenly he wept............' Okay, this is not a scene depicting a man carrying out a long-planned coup. It ISN'T the Boromir the reader has gotten to know. It's a scene showing the Ring taking control of a very conflicted man's weakness. What say you?

If I may insert myself into the discussion, I agree with you, Burr. I think that Boromir did not intend to take the ring by force from the beginning. I do think that all along he hoped to pursuade the company to come with him to Minas Tirith, therefore bringing the ring to his city, but not to take it for himself. However, the shock to him over his attempt to take the ring by force, especially by overpowering someone as weak and small as a hobbit, was clearly an indication that the ring was exerting its corrupting influence over him. That he succumbed to that long before anyone else did was his failing, his weakness, but that doesn't mean he originally intended to do evil from the beginning.

And the lesson of the story is, as goes Boromir, so go all who remain exposed to the ring's influence (or in Denethor's and Saruman's case, Sauron's influence) for long. The ring seems to find each person's weakness and work its corruption through that weakness. I think someone pointed that out a while ago on this thread, so I won't belabor the point.

I've enjoyed reading the Boromir discussion--sorry I couldn't join in until now.

Good try right back at you. You have to take into consideration why Boromir went to the council. Faramir says to Frodo that Denethor, Boromir, and Faramir thought Isildur's bain was a weapon to be used to defend Minas Tirith. Faramir goes on to say that they didn't know it was a ring. But they thought it was a powerful weapon.

Faramir also went on to say the following about Boromir. (And Faramir knew his brother) That first of all, it offended Boromir greatly that his father was not king of Gondor. And that chaffed on him.

So when the riddling dreams came to both Faramir and Boromir, Faramir would have gone, but Boromir put himself forward. Boromir came to Rivendell to find the weapon so that he could defend Minas Tirith and bring himself glory.

Now, Sam said that in Lorien, he knew that Boromir planned to take the ring. Sam was not a mind reader. He learned that from Boromir himself. Maybe not in words, but body language and looks can be stronger than words.

I don't have my copy of FOTR here, but there is a point while they are floating down the Anduin that Boromir slips and gives himself away. He covers it up by saying he didn't mean it. (I'll try to find it before tonight and post it either on the thread or I'll freep mail you)

Boromir spends his time trying to convince Aragorn to go to Minas Tirath. When Boromir learns that Frodo will go onto Mordor, he feels betrayed and then has no choice but to take the ring.

Now, the ring did work against Boromir. But it could only work against him because it found some hold in him.

James writes in his epistle: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I am a great defender of Boromir here on this thread because I don't think this one failing makes Boromir a bad man. He desperately wants to save Minas Tirith.

So, on the banks of the Anduin, Boromir makes one desperate grab for the ring. I grant that... but, I don't think it was a moment of madness. I think his plan the whole time was to take the "weapon of the enemy" back to Minas Tirith to defend it and give himself glory.

What say you?

Okay... here's the quote from the book I promised you in the earlier post.

Fellowship of the Ring page 414...

"I shall go to Minas Tirith, alone if need be, for it is my duty," said Boromir; and after than he was silent for a while, sitting with his eyes fixed on Frodo, as if was trying to read the Halfling's thoughts. At length, he spoke again, softly, as if he was debating with himself. "If you wish only to destroy the Ring," he said, "then there is little use in war and weapons; and the Men of Minas Tirith cannot help. But if you wish to destroy the armed might of the Dark Lord, then it is folly to go without force in his domain, and folly to throw away." He paused suddenly, as if he had become aware that he was speaking his thoughts aloud. "It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean," he eneded. "It is a choice between defending a strong place and walking openly into the arms of death. At least, that is how I see it."

Frodo caught something new and strange in Boromir's glance, and he looked hard at him. Plainly Boromir's thought was different than his final words. It would be folly to throw away: what? The Ring of Power? He has said something like this at the Council, but then accepted the correction of Elrond.

Let's go to the Council of Elrond and see what Frodo is referring to. Page 300.

Boromir stirred, and Frodo looked at him. He was fingering his great horn and frowning. At length he spoke.

"I do not understand all this," he said. "Saruman is a traitor, but did he not have a glimpse of wisdom? Why do you speak ever of hiding and destroying? Why should we not think that the Great Ring has come into our hands to serve us in the very hour of need? Wielding it, the Free Lords of the Free may surely defeat the Enemy. That is what he fears most, I deem.

The Men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it and go forth to victory."

Elrond then has a big long speech and ends with I will not take the Ring to wield it.

"Nor I," said Gandalf.

Boromir looked at them doubtfully, but he bowed his head. "So be it..."

Now, I don't think for a minute he gave up his purpose just because Elrond and Gandalf said the ring can't be wielded. What if Boromir held Elves and Wizards in the same esteem his father did? He gave in it seems, but on page 414, he still has the same strategy.

I do believe that Boromir was influenced by the Ring, but I do not believe that he was suddenly overcome. I believe, he came to Rivendell on a desperate mission: to find out what Isildur's bane was. He did not know it was the Ring of Power. Faramir said that Boromir thought it was a great weapon. His mission was to bring that weapon to Gondor to aid in the defense of Gondor and bring glory to himself.

So, when faced with returning home without it... he tried to take it from Frodo.

What say you...