Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
In my opinion, PJ has focused on two characters and their stories... Frodo and the ring, and Aragorn and the return of the king.
Frodo's story is built with the necessary ingredients that a character needs to endure, change, and grow in a the course of good drama. Plenty of conflict, tension, resolution, etc.
Aragorn, on the other hand, is not. In the book, I have always felt that Aragorn was ambivilent about being king. He could have easily left it if it weren't for the fact that he could not marry Arwen until he came into his kingdom.
Well, ambivilent doesn't play too well on the screen. In fact, ambivilent doesn't really play too well in life. So, to make Aragorn either relunctant or hesitant is a good plot devise. I don't think there has been a great betrayal of Tolkien's Aragorn (not that I think any of you have said that). But to be communicated more thoroughly throughout the plot the initial relunctance or conflicted thoughts have to be pronounced. You don't want to leave the audience guessing at the end of the movie.
So, two things about the extended scenes. I love the Aragorn scenes especially in Rivendell. I love the good bye scene between he and Arwen.
I don't have a problem with Arwen having a bigger part (I say this in deference to Hair because everytime I bring it up, she is constantly telling me to eat a seed cake and drink a pint) What I object to is if she is forced into the plot and doesn't fit. But, I would object to that in any movie/play. Heck, when I finished the play at the performing arts studio, and then the front desk puts a new student in my class (even though I have asked them not to) and I have to insert a new character into the play, I can always tell that the character is being forced in there.
In FOTR, PJ handled Arwen's role very well. I think Liv Tyler is a beautiful woman and did a great job. I am reserving judgment on Two Towers...
As for the rest of the scenes... it does add more texture to the characters and richness to the closeness of the fellowship.
Love the whole Lothlorien -- for the first time, I truly, truly liked Gimli...
And I understand that if the people who control the purse strings said cut it, then those little scenes will have to go so the story stays intact.
Loved two scenes in particular. The fellowship leaving Rivendell and Frodo asking Gandalf which way to Morder. And I love the scene in front of Moira when Pippin asks Gandalf what he was going to do because he couldn't open the doors.
Gollum made another appearance. I would have kept the scene in between Aragorn and Boromir. There was a lot said there wasn't there?
Anyhoo, I have a lot of work to do, so I'm popping off.
The gentleman in you is a red X in a box?
I loved that scene, and it made the scene with him and Aragorn at the end that much more powerful and poignant!
Had to respond to this with a great big dwarf hug!
*great big dwarf hug* :^D
I know what you mean. I don't know why but the way Galadriel looked at Gimli while asking what gift he wanted just absolutely melted me. I love Galadriel. I'm in love with Galadriel now. Arwen is second fiddle now. I never thought it could happen. That was my favorite part. I'm still kind of sheepishly trying to come to terms with it. I know exactly how Gimli feels! LOL!
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! :)
I don't think he was ambivilent at all in the book else he wouldn't have said to Gandalf that he has worked hard throughout the long years to do something foolish with the Palantir.
His objective was to keep the free lands free, not come to (his own) power as quickly as possible. If it meant defending the hobbits while Bilbo held the ring or waiting to claim the crown until after the foes of Gondor were defeated then so be it.
That scene between Boromir and Aragorn is needed.
In Rivendell, we see the Aragorn is afraid that he has inherited Isildur's weakness for power. Arwen tells him that's not true.
Then in the extended scenes, we see that Aragorn is relunctant to be king because he has never been tested to see what strength lies in him. Oh, yes, he's done brave things... but this is a testing of character.
At Lothlorien's parting, Galadriel says the timing for testing, for choosing has come. Aragorn must make up his mind to rise about his fathers failures or to sink lower.
Then comes the new scene between Boromir and Aragorn. Boromir is right. Aragorn is judging all men on past failure. Because Aragorn believes that all men are weak. That's why the ring can't go to Gondor. He sees in Boromir everything he believes about himself...
Until, he passes the test and lets the ring go. There it was... all he had to do was take it. The ring was calling his name. He let Frodo go.
Boromir's death scene is so poignant -- now that all the shadings and nuances have been woven into "my brother, my captain, my king".
There is still a lot of tension between the book and the movie in a lot of respects. I can see both your points here. The problem arises when trying to take the movie at face value, versus incorporating your knowledge of the book and weaving that together with the movie as you watch it. You will come away with different impressions of the same story. Does that make any sense?
I've seen the movie more... so that is probably my over riding impressions.
I have read the Sam/Smeagol/Frodo scenes alot, mostly because I think they are wonderfully written, funny, and very, very good. In fact, to me, writing doesn't get any better than those three going through Mordor.
I think Boromir meant to say,"...my Ring." ;^)
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