When you are watching a murder and rape in progress, to claim "neutrality" is to defacto support the murderer and rapist.
That is a fact that we ignore to our great peril.
So, it's not about Russia specifically, it's about any Axis of Evil Dictators (China, NoKo, Iran & others) threatening and invading their neighbors for empire-building purposes.
Red6: "This is about a stupid war that was not necessary.
There was no need for this:"
"Biden assures Zelenskiy that NATO membership in Ukraine's hands, Kyiv says"Your article is dated December 8, 2021, but that was far from the first time NATO membership was discussed.
Here is a abbreviated time-line:
- 1994 -- Ukraine became a NATO Partner For Peace member, as did Russia.
- 1997 -- Ukraine joined the NATO-Ukraine Commission, Russia joined a similar plan.
- 2002 -- Ukraine began the NATO-Ukraine Action Plan
- 2005 -- Ukraine began NATO Intensified Dialog program
- 2008 -- NATO summit in Bucharest invited Ukraine and several others to join, but without issuing a Membership Action Plan (MAP) for Ukraine.
- 2010 -- Pro-Putin stooge-traitor Viktor Yanukovich elected Ukraine's president, begins prosecution of political opponents and announces Ukraine's neutrality towards NATO.
- 2014 -- Maidan Revolt, Yanukovich removed from office by Ukraine's parliament voting 328-0, Yanukovich fled to Russia and was later convicted of treason in absentia.
In early 2014, ~80% of Ukrainians had opposed NATO membership. - 2014 -- Vlad the Invader seized and annexed Crimea then invaded and launched alleged "civil war" in the Donbas.
So Ukrainian attitudes toward NATO made a dramatic reversal, to now a vast majority supporting membership. - 2017 -- Russia's annual military exercises held in western Russia and Belarus near Ukraine.
- 2018 -- Ukraine enshrined future NATO membership in Ukraine's Constitution.
- 2019 -- Russia's annual military exercises grew larger and more ominous, all the while denying any intentions to re-invade Ukraine.
- 2021 -- Russia's exercises grew enormous in scale and closer to Ukraine's borders, all the while continuing to deny intentions to re-invade Ukraine.
- 2021 -- NATO's June summit reaffirmed Ukraine's eventual membership, but still did not provide a MAP or membership date.
- 2021 -- On December 1, NATO's Secretary General Stoltenberg said, "Russia has no right to establish a sphere of influence" regarding Ukraine.
- 2021 -- December 9, US Pres. Biden assures Ukraine Pres Zelenskyy of American support.
- 2021 -- December 10, Vlad the Invader issues his war-ultimatum demanding:
- "A legally binding guarantee that NATO would not admit any new members, especially Ukraine and Georgia, and that it would not deploy any additional troops or weapons in the existing member states.
- A revision of the 1997 NATO–Russia Founding Act, which regulates the military activities and cooperation between NATO and Russia, and a withdrawal of NATO's infrastructure and capabilities from the territories that were not part of NATO as of 1997.
- A moratorium on the deployment of intermediate-range and shorter-range missiles in Europe, and a dialogue on strategic stability and arms control.
- A reform of the OSCE to make it more representative, inclusive, and effective in addressing the security challenges and conflicts in Europe."
NATO's response, in short, was: "Up yours, Vlad"
Of course, to anyone who understands that Russia's government must always respond to weakness with aggression, because that is how it has always existed.
Vlad the Invader saw strength in Pres. Trump and that kept the peace.
But he saw weakness in Presidents Obama and Biden and the results were inevitable invasions of Ukraine.
Red6: "This is about a war with nearly a pre-determined outcome."
That obviously depends on who, exactly, is making the determinations.
If you and Vlad make the determinations, then Russia will win and the sooner the better.
But if Ukrainians and Europeans determine it, then Russia will fail and justly so.
Red6: "This is a war not benefiting Ukraine, Western or Central Europe, the US, or Russia."
War is always h*ll and doesn't "benefit" anybody.
But the outcomes of wars can be of huge benefits to both the winners and losers, as, for example WWII.
Likewise, had the wrong side won, the world today would be a vastly different place.
Red6: "The only winner here is a small group of folks in the financial (example: Black Rock, JPMC) and defense industries.
The rest of the people, the average citizen in Germany, the US, Ukraine or Russia, are (((ALL))) losers.
Yes, we are losers since in the grand scheme of things, I am less wealthy and less safe because of this conflict.
I am forced to be a loser because I also sit in the same boat and the morons Aspen, Blinken, Nuland, Biden, Sullivan are at the wheel, which steered us into this mess."
All that is pure babbling nonsense and only shows you as a brain-dead sponge for Russian propaganda.
The real truth is certainly plenty bad enough -- Pres. Trump's defeat in the 2020 election was a disaster beyond our imaginations, it put in an administration that is not just brain-dead, it's rock-brained, meaning there's nothing there except corruption and weakness.
Corruption and weakness have the predictable results of enabling bad people to do bad things, notably the dictators of Russia, China, Iran and NoKo.
The Biden administration committed the unpardonable sin of destroying America's First Line of Defense, namely our military deterrence against evil actors.
With deterrence now gone, we are forced to defend what strong leadership, as in Trump, could have prevented.
But none of this makes Russia right or justified in murdering and raping its way through Ukraine.
It only makes us weak and stupid until the next election.
Red6: "For you, this might be about choosing sides and some deep instilled hatred/distrust for Russia."
No! There's no "choosing sides" between a criminal and his victims, that's insane.
If you ignore the crimes, you simply encourage the criminal to repeat and enlarge them the next time.
As for your allegations of "deep instilled hatred/distrust for Russia" -- that would be any human being on Planet Earth who's ever suffered enslavement in the Old Tsarist or Soviet Empires.
No sane person would ever want to repeat that, which is why all of Russia's neighbors who can, want to become NATO members.
You would too, wouldn't you?
Red6: "However, for most against this war, it is about a senseless destruction of wealth and life, the infliction of pain and fear that was entirely avoidable."
It's only senseless if you support Vlad the Invader's revanchism for the Old Tsarist and Soviet Empires.
But if you believe in any of the ideals of freedom, democracy, constitutional republics, national sovereignty, international law, criminal law... the Ten Commandments, then Ukrainians have just as much natural right to fight for their independence from Russia as Americans had in 1776 to declare our own independence.
Red6: "Now, we are in the odd situation of pretending like we have a moral high ground and are winning (although the winning myth is fading)."
Ukraine has absolutely the same high moral ground as any victim of murder or rape would, and Russia today represents the depths of Old Time empire-building moral depravity.
Those are facts, not just opinions.
Red6: "This is the result of a colossal policy failure, no different than the withdraw from Afghanistan and how that unfolded."
None of which would excuse our own moral depravity if we allow Ukrainians to be re-enslaved by Russians.
Red6: "The only difference here, is that because of the nature of this conflict, the average layperson will lay blame for this conflict on who shot first, i.e. Russia.
The lead up to the war and what really caused it is intentionally ignored (pointless in having a debate with people that are insincere - they are not interested in truth)."
I'm sorry, but so far, I've seen nothing truthful from you, FRiend, it's all just Russian propaganda lies & nonsense.
Seriously, why do you do it?
Red6: "The MSM that is favorable to the Democrats and Biden, a foreign (European) MSM which is on board with this conflict (same interests which were driving them), causes us to have a near one sided message with little to no dissent in the MSM.
Here on the FR, where a few folks actually think on their own and don’t just regurgitate what they read in the MSM and social media, you will find some differing viewpoints."
Naw... what you "just regurgitate" are Russian propaganda lies & nonsense -- you have no real facts or reasons, it's only whatever they concoct in the basements of the Kremlin's Ministry for Agitation and Propaganda.
Red6: "Sorry you feel threatened by people that have different view points.
If you feel it’s a problem that you’re outnumbered 2:1 according to you, then simply go to the MSM or Social media outlets where except for a small minority like TCN which actually are off the beaten path, you will see a massage in agreement with yours. "
Naw... still you don't understand.
I don't feel "threatened" by just two-to-one odds because those are good odds -- Ukrainians face three-to-one on the battlefield and Donald Trump will face at least three-to-one in his "debate" with Biden on Thursday.
In fact, it won't even be a debate between Trump and Biden, it'll be between Trump and the Democrats' media, in which his media will declare Biden the winner.
Which, when you think about it, is not necessarily entirely bad for Trump, since it means Biden will be renominated by Democrats...
So, two-to-one odds are not that bad, but the real problem is that you people disgrace yourselves and Free Republic with your insane unbridled personal attacks, insults, mocking & ridicule.
I don't think it can help your case, or Free Republic, when anti-Ukers drive away posters who disagree with your benign opinions of Russia's Vlad the Invader.
Red6: "Traditionally, the conservative view is not that expeditionary, expansionist, globalist (supra national), for profit or politically motivated military campaigns are a good thing.
Traditionally, from the very beginning, the idea is that the US should keep out of European affairs, be nearly neutral and what we today would describe with the pejorative: “isolationist.”
If you were to time-travel, you’d see that the views of Rand and Ron Paul are pretty much what our Founding Fathers espoused."
I see that you have no real understanding of American history, and I blame our public schools for that, many of them can be just awful in teaching the basics of American history and the values it represents.
The truth is that none of our Founders were "isolationists", though some were more focused on internal issues than others.
Pres. Washington, for example, was more concerned about the Northwest Indian War (Brits & Indians vs. US settlers) -- with US Army's annihilation at the Battle of the Wabash in 1791 -- than he was about British or French impressment of American sailors.
But other Founders were more concerned about the French (Adams: Quazi War), Mediterranean Pirates (Jefferson & Madison: Barbary Wars), the Brits (Madison: War of 1812), the Spanish (Monroe: Florida), and many others -- the total list is hundreds of military operations in dozens of foreign countries some in almost every administration.
Red6: "From the very beginning: Washington's Farwell Address"
You have some very interesting ideas of what it means to be “conservative.”"
Naw... but I do have a much clearer-eyed vision of history than your very limited perspective.
I know that during the US Revolutionary War our Founders formed several alliances, including with France, Spain, the Netherlands and various Indian Tribes which fought battles in or near dozens of countries in the Caribbean, Mediterranean, North Sea and Canada.
Just from Pres. Washington's time to Pres. Jackson's -- 1789 to 1837, they fought four wars (Northwest Indian, Quazi, Barbary and 1812) plus launched dozens of military operations in Central and South America, the Caribbean, to Africa (against the slave trade) and Mediterranean to the Pacific Islands and Asia.
They were the opposite of "stay at home" isolationists.
They formed alliances and trade agreements as they felt necessary -- one of particular note under Pres. John Q. Adams resulted in a joint US-British naval and marine landing in Cuba in 1825, against pirates.
That's "conservative" relative to our Founders' original visions for the United States and our role in the world.
Of course, they never went looking for trouble -- "cruisin' for a bruisin'" as is said, but neither did they ignore and run from it.
