Posted on 04/22/2024 10:32:26 AM PDT by Freedom4US
I’m sitting here re-charging my RV battery bank. Just messing around seeing how this stuff works.
One trend is RV manufacturers now furnish 12 volt DC powered refrigerators. Even the small units pull 10 amps, on hot days I can see 40 amps or so daily would be routine. Using a generator and the installed RV converter, it needs re-charging often, and while the performance is good, it is what it is.
A propane powered refrigerator, on the other hand, will run for a month on a standard 20 pound barbecue tank.
Out in the desert, water looms critical when “boondocking” or camping at remote sites. Remember the Apollo program?
One of the then-new technologies they employed for powering the Command and Service modules were called Fuel Cells. While they have been around for a really long time, they refined them and used them to good effect.
They run on Oxygen and Hydrogen. And produce gobs of electricity. Aren’t both Oxygen and Hydrogen available at Welding supply houses? I guess Hydrogen is “Cryogenic”, is that a show stopper? Can’t fill up a tank like propane?
These fuel cells would be *perfect* for the RV industry. Cabins. Etc. Oh - Did You Know what the byproduct of a hydrogen oxygen fuel cell is?
Pure water. Exactly what is needed at remote sites! What say you engineering Freepers? What happened to fuel cells?
dotcom era fuel cells? I think the statute of limitations on investent fraud has long since run out on those.
Dude. Pot may be legal in your state, but.
This is a discussion (hopefully) about generating electricity with fuel cells. Read it again if you are unclear. Thanks.
Many people turned large fortunes into small ones buying Plug Power, now a penny stock and "leader" in the industry. https://www.ir.plugpower.com/overview/default.aspx
Home fuel cell system ran from around $35,000 to $100,000 or more , ran ? so are they gone now ? LOL
Fuel cells work as a concept, but their efficiency and productivity are not at a level that works for consumers. That’s what happened to them.
For example, last year my home solar stored a total of 12,066.7 kWh (12 megawatt hours) to the solar battery bank, and 10,880.5 kWh was pulled from the batteries at nights and rainy days. So, in other words, my batteries gave me back 90% of what I gave them.
I don't think the production of hydrogen, storing it (either as gas or compressed), then using it to produce power with fuel cells can provide anything close to 90% of the energy used to produce and store the hydrogen.
But we need to separate scams from what is under discussion here.
The Great Salad Oil Swindle is interesting reading too. Apollo fuel cells worked. The technology works.
Why isn’t it utilized?
I should include disclaimers for the post-millenials in the audience, I suppose.
When I’m boondocking though, or at a cabin, I don’t necessarily care about “efficiency”.
I want lots of juice, and potable water. It sure looks like a technical solution that would scale down. Not having to fvck with Solar or Generators would be fine with me, too.
HYZON hybrid trucks
https://www.hyzonfuelcell.com/vehicles/hyhd8-200kw
Toyota 2024 Mirai
https://www.toyota.com/mirai/
^pre-millenials.
It all comes down to cost. Fuel cells, at current level of development, does not return your initial investment at a sufficient level to be worth investing into it.
FL
For something to be worth buying into, you need your money back in a reasonable length of time.
“hybrid” -> hydrogen fuel cell
The problem with fuel cells is that they would be a wonderful source of energy if there were abundant sources of elemental oxygen and hydrogen. Unfortunately, there are not. Plants do produce elemental oxygen, which will remain abundant in the air until anti “global-warming” CO2 depletion schemes are put into effect, at which point, plants will start dying off and will no longer produce oxygen. Hydrogen, on the other hand, must be separated from whatever other elements it is covalently bound to. This takes energy. The energy gained by the combination of H2 and O2 to form water (and other molecules) will always be less than the energy required to produce elemental H2.
Sorry your imagination is so limited, not my problem.
But if a “home” system was s 35k to a 100k, imagine a scaled down portable unit.
If it were to pencil out even reasonably, I think they would sell very well. But I’m not sure with the costs of compressed gasses, what that would be. That’s why I asked. They sure looked promising in the 1960s. But then, so did everything else.
I’m not an engineer but the subject interests me. So take the following with a big block of salt...
I think their has been some discussions of vehicles with fuel cells. But, as I understand, there are some big problems with it that still need to be overcome before the technology could be safely delivered to the automobile industry. Such as keeping the two gases under the pressures needed.
Apollo 13 had a fuel cell failure that destroyed/mission-killed the service module. Imagine millions of cars on the road, knowing if there was a similar failure, the vechicle would be destroyed and could cause collateral damage to structures (a garage) or another vehicle (if it happened on a drive.
...Other FReepers will steer you right on this subject! :-)
The basic issue is cost, and energy efficiency.
Electrolysis is approx 50 percent efficient, and currently costs $10 / kg.
More efficient H2 production is based on methane, so it just adds to greenhouse gases.
Since there isn’t enough renewable electricity supply, you have to run natural gas generators to generate electricity to power generators for H2 ...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0016236122001867
Another problem is containment. Hydrogen is a very tiny molecule. Quite adept at escaping.
Yes, I understand perpetual motion isn’t possible.
Is hydrogen and oxygen that expensive though? I’m f someone (you know who) could make a portable unit for 3 to 5k and would power/recharge batteries, and produce pure drinking water, I’d buy it. See where I’m goin’ with this?
I filled a 20 pound BBQ tank at Cline’s Corners for 12 bucks. How much is hydrogen and oxygen for Welders?
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