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To: Elsie
As for more debate on soul sleep, I responded to you on this a while back, but I do not know when. Here's what I've found in Scripture. Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. Looks like Scripture disagrees with the claim that believers who have died are in heaven RIGHT NOW; doesn't it! 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 King James Version (KJV) 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Dead in Christ? Many folks say the 'in Christ' folks are already in Heaven. Then what's this RAISING that is being bandied about here?

It is referring to just what it refers to, the resurrection of the body, that being the main event in the kingdom of God, without which there will be much of the book of Revelation missing as pertains to the redeemed, unless you subscribe the pretrip rapture. Or at least before the opening of the fifth seal, for "when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Revelation 6:9-10).

In any case,

"our conversation is in heaven; from whence [G3739 which/whereof] also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Philippians 3:20-21)

I think this is also inspired Truth: when "the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:6-7)

Thus Paul was

in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: (Philippians 1:23)

For

whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2 Corinthians 5:6)

Which contrast btwn two conditions, either the earthly and the Heavenly, vs. an intermediate place or condition, is what I see the collective weight of Scripture teaching.

Yet even if the redeemed are not yet in Heaven, then as shown in the literal story of Luke 16:19-31, they would not be actually sleeping, comatose, but as those who were in paradise, and are, that being the 3rd Heaven, in which Paul saw sacred revelation. (2 Co. 12:4)

For as told you in the previous reply (I found it),

there are texts which speak of souls being conscious before the resurrections. Such as,

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luke 16:22-23)

Here, souls are conscious after death, and experiencing two contrasting moralities. This is not a parable, for in this [that] genre known physical realities are used which represent spiritual equivalents, and the Lord never used real names or science fiction [which He would be using here if there was no such thing as consciousness after death before the resurrection]. However, the Lord used real names here, .... Laz and the rich man represent classes and a spiritual reality...[and paradise is now the third heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:4)]

Here, the next place [the] contrite criminal will be is with the Lord, in paradise, not the grave. And moving the comma to after "Today" does not make grammatical sense (when else would He tell the man that?).

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Revelation 6:9-10)

Here again, souls are conscious after death, without a physical head (separated Christians), though the pretrib rapturists would say such were part of the first resurrection. [Next]

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:18-20)

This best denotes conscious souls being preached to, and it is hardly tenable that prison here is just the grave. [Next]

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:7-10)

This is correspondent with Abraham's bosom being paradise, to which OT believers went, since while God forgave sins before the final atonement, in recognizance of it, yet "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (Hebrews 10:4) and thus, with the earthly tabernacle/holy places being "figures of the true" (Hebrews 9:24) that of type and anti-type, "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing, Which was a figure for the time then present" (Hebrews 9:8, 9) into which only the High Priest, being a figure of Christ could enter, and which He did, "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." (Hebrews 9:12)

Thus, at the cry of "It is finished," (Jn. 19:30) behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent (Matthew 27:51) signifying the way into the holy of holies was opened. And thus after his resurrection, many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Therefore believers [spiritually now] have "boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus," (Hebrews 10:19) by the sinless shed blood of Christ, "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." (1 Peter 3:22)

Which is also correspondent to

Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.. (Ephesians 4:9-11) And with paradise now being the third heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:4)

Note also that neither Enoch (Genesis 5:24) nor Elijah (2 Kings 2:11) are actually said to have entered into God's presence in heaven, as the word for heaven is not specific of that (though it can denote it), but usually refers to the visible realm above, from the atmosphere to space.

Meaning that prior to the perfect atonement of Christ OT believers were in paradise/Abraham's bosom, this being the other side of Hades, with a "great gulf" separating this place of comfort from the "place of torment," (Luke 16:26, 28) but the perfect atonement of Christ split the veil, and opened up the holy of holies for believers to enter by the sinless shed blood of Christ. And while being quickened by the Spirit, the Lord of all also went and preached unto the disobedient spirits in prison, (1 Peter 3:19) perhaps revealing that, like as those who died never having heard of Christ, yet in rejecting the light they had which would have led them to Christ, (cf. John 12:35, 36; Romans 2:14016) then they were essentially rejecting Him who gives light to all who come into this world, (John 1:9) and declaring His victory. I say "perhaps" since I do not know of anything corespondent and confirmatory to this.

In any case, we have substantial testimony and with complimentary texts to souls being conscious after death, which is not in necessary conflict with sleeping in death and bodily resurrection, for the former refers to the spiritual aspect and the other, that of the physical. ... All of which stands illustrates how a complimentary confluence of Scriptures works to provide illumination.

Here are some pages from a Greek scholar but which I have not reviewed (not that I agree with him in all he says on doctrine):

The False Doctrine of "Soul Sleep" I.

Sleep as a Euphemism for Death (debunking 'soul sleep').

The False Doctrine of "Soul Sleep" II.

31 posted on 11/11/2023 7:46:20 AM PST by daniel1212 (Turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves damned+destitute sinners on His acct, believe, b baptized+follow HIM)
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To: daniel1212
You posted a lot of stuff.

I merely want an answer to this:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV)

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

From WHERE?

32 posted on 11/11/2023 1:40:51 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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