The REAL cause of the Civil War.

Vanity | 1957 | Ayn Rand

[DiogenesLamp]

I admire many things about Jackson, and some, not.

Same here.

[DiogenesLamp]

No, in fact the British put relatively as much effort into their war effort as the Union put into the Civil War. The difference was that the British war effort was spread over a much larger battlefield -- from India to the Caribbean, and against several countries allied to Americans, including the French, Spanish and Dutch.

You contradict yourself within your own paragraph. British forces, the bulk of which were engaged with the enemy elsewhere in the world, do not count as an effort to overturn the "rebellion."

Only those British forces engaged in conflict with the colonists count as fighting the rebellion, And that was a small part of the larger British forces.

And in 1861 many Confederates realized they needed foreign allies to win independence. But in 1861 no foreign powers were willing to support a nation dedicated to the proposition that:

According to another poster upthread, France was willing to recognize them if the British did as well. Attempts to speak with the British Ambassador to France were rejected, and so nothing further transpired along this avenue.

Also, the same message said that the Confederates were willing to abolish slavery within 5 years in exchange for the recognition of France. If all this is true, so much for your argument on that point.

So, the Civil War was lost by Confederates before it even began.

When someone with a potential army four times larger than any you could raise, decides they want to have a war with you, your prospects for winning such a war are bleak.

[BroJoeK]

servantboy777: "Revisionism on full display. Was slavery an issue of contention? Certainly. Was it the cause for the Civil war? nope!"

The immediate cause of Civil War was the Confederate attack on Fort Sumter, April 12, 1861, followed by the Confederate Declaration of War on the United States, May 6, 1861.
Neither of those had anything to do, directly, with slavery.

But slavery was an important part of the "mix" from beginning to end -- from Confederate "Reasons for Secession" documents to Union "Contraband of War" laws, to the Emancipation Proclamation to the 13th Amendment.
So claims that try to minimize the role of slavery are a-historical.

servantboy777: "In fact, the overwhelming majority of those brave and honorable men fighting for the cause of the South were too damn poor to own slaves.
So, what was it they were fighting to preserve?"

The usual estimate going back to Civil War times is that about 25% of Confederate soldiers came from slaveholding families. Units from the Deep South had more slaveholders, those from Upper South & Border States had fewer.
One problem with even this 25% estimate is that very few Confederate soldiers came from regions in the Confederacy with few to no slaves. Such regions typically supported the Union cause.

So even when Confederate soldiers did not themselves own slaves, most had family members and close neighbors who did own slaves and whose "way of life" depended on slavery.
So those soldiers felt a vested interest in their "peculiar institution" beyond simply their need to defend their homeland.

servantboy777: "Because of revisionism, most do not realize the so called great emancipator Lincoln” before the war and the great Northern general Grant after the war both sought to recolonizing the negro back to Afrika, Caribbean and Puerto Rico.
They believed the negro would likely not assimilate into American society."

The word for that is "recolonization" and it was official US government policy, supported by many Presidents and state governments beginning around 1820.
From roughly 1820 until the Civil War, huge sums of money were appropriated by the Federal government and state governments to support "recolonizing" freed slaves to, primarily, Liberia in Africa.

The results were always disappointing -- the numbers who volunteered to go were few, and most of them died within a few years of arriving in Africa, or elsewhere.
But the efforts continued and did not end until Lincoln's much larger projects failed on a larger scale.
And by then African-American leaders were telling their government they didn't want to "recolonize" Africa, rather they wanted full citizenship in the United States.

And so that's just what happened, eventually.

servantboy777: "Furthermore, Lincoln himself wrote to newspaper editor Horace Greeley his intentions regarding the war of Northern aggression. Preserve the Union at all costs. Freed slaves or NOT."

What Lincoln actually did in office was free as many slaves as he believed he lawfully could, beginning with compensated emancipation in Washington, DC, and "Contraband of War" confiscations, progressing to the much larger Emancipation Proclamation and then the 13th Amendment.

servantboy777: "Most do not realize that at one point, there were more white slaves than black."

But no white "slaves" in North America ever endured the degradation of permanent inherited chattel slavery based solely on their race.
The typical "white slave" was an indentured servant who had contracted for a period of years to work off their debts.
The other major category were convicted prisoners serving long sentences, to be freed if they survived their term.

servantboy777: "It was the black man who first sold the black man into slavery."

Because there was a market for slaves, with white buyers -- the buyers came first, the slaves were captured to satisfy their demands. No reason to sugar-coat any of this.

[BroJoeK]

ConservativeMind: "My bad. Buchanan was a fellow Democrat, but from Pennsylvania, making him a quasi-Northerner."

The term for Buchanan was first coined by Virginia Representative & Senator, John Randolph, who called himself an "Old Republican" so as to distinguish his strict constitutional views from those of Democratic President Thomas Jefferson -- Randolph coined the term, "Doughfaced Northerner" to suggest someone like Pres. Buchanan who was eager to serve "Southern interests" especially regarding slavery.

[BroJoeK]

ConservativeMind: "The South apparently provided little income to the country in the form of tariff income, so you have lost another argument."

In 1860 the US GDP was around $4.4 billion, of which roughly 15% came from "the South", or around $650 million.
Of that about $200 million came from the export of cotton, plus some portion of circa $20 million from tobacco exports.
Nearly all of the money earned by Southerners from exports went to pay for "imports" of common manufactured items from the North, NOT for luxury goods from abroad.

[BroJoeK]

jmacusa: "You Rebs piss me off to no end.
Calling yourselves Republicans all the while venerating a bunch of treasonous Southern Democrats."

Ah, come on, FRiend, tell us how you really feel! ;-)

[wardaddy]

James Madison

Known early Nazi

Who knew

I swunny

[ConservativeMind]

You have never given any support for your assertion that “60% of all your money” of any form was taken/provided from the South. Even your own graph of income from import tariffs shows the South gave virtually NOTHING of value to the national coffers, compared with the North.

The South lived off the tariff income produced by the North, as supporting the US government, and your own posts prove this.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "You not only admitted that the Harriet Lane was a warship, but you also admitted that it was at the harbor entrance, and that it fired on the Nashville.
I'm sure they could hear the cannon shots at Beauregard's HQ."

And now our FRiend, DiogenesLamp, has just admitted there was no "Lincoln's war fleet" at Charleston Harbor when Confederates decided to begin Civil War, only one small revenue cutter, which fired warning shots at a civilian ship.

[BroJoeK]

Bull Snipe: "During the War, Kentucky provided 44 infantry regiments, 17 cavalry regiments and 5 artillery batteries to the Union Army.
The state provided 9 infantry regiment, 16 cavalry regiments and 8 artillery batteries to the Confederate Army"

The ratio of Union to Confederate soldiers from Kentucky was over three to one:

"35,000 Kentuckians served as Confederate soldiers; an estimated 125,000 Kentuckians served as Union soldiers.[3] Approximately 24,000 Black Kentuckians, free and enslaved, served as Union soldiers.[4][5]"

[higgmeister]

Kentucky was certainly a slave-state, but the vast majority of Kentuckians were Unionists. Regardless of what deluded pretenders in Richmond, VA, imagined, most Kentuckians were not Confederates.

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kentucky_Confederate_Civil_War_units

Infantry

• 1st Infantry Regiment
• 2nd Infantry Regiment
• 3rd Infantry Regiment
• 4th Infantry Regiment
• 5th Infantry Regiment
• 6th Infantry Regiment
• 7th Infantry Regiment
• 8th Infantry Regiment
• 9th Infantry Regiment (Hunt's 5th Infantry Regiment)
• 1st (Taylor's) Infantry Battalion
• Duncan's (Desha's) Infantry Battalion
• Ficklin's Battalion, Infantry
• Kirkpatrick's Battalion
• White's Infantry Battalion
• Corbin's (Captain) Men

Cavalry

• 1st Cavalry Regiment (1st (3rd) Cavalry)
• 2nd (Duke's) Cavalry Regiment
• 2nd (Woodward's) Cavalry Regiment
• 3rd (Butler's) Cavalry Regiment
• 3rd (Tucker's) Cavalry Regiment
• 3rd & 7th (Consolidated) Cavalry
• 4th Cavalry Regiment
• 5th Cavalry Regiment
• 6th Cavalry Regiment
• 7th Cavalry Regiment ("3rd Cavalry Regiment")
• 8th Cavalry Regiment
• 8th and 12th (Consolidated) Cavalry
• 9th Cavalry Regiment ("4th Mounted Rifles Regiment")
• 10th Cavalry Regiment, Partisan ("10th Cavalry Regiment")
• 10th (Diamond's) Cavalry Regiment
• 10th (Johnson's) Cavalry Regiment
• 10th Cavalry Regiment
• 11th Cavalry Regiment ("7th (Chenault's) Cavalry Regiment")
• 11th (Hollis') Cavalry Regiment
• 12th Cavalry Regiment ("1st Kentucky and Tennessee Mounted Rifles")
• 13th Cavalry Regiment ("10th Mounted Rifles," "10th Infantry Regiment," "10th Cavalry Battalion," "10th Mounted Rifles," "11th Mounted Rifles," or "11th Mounted Infantry Regiment")
• 13th (Sypert's) Cavalry Regiment
• 14th Cavalry Regiment ("10th (May's) Cavalry Regiment")
• 14th (Richard C. Morgan's) Cavalry Regiment
• 15th Cavalry Regiment ("2nd (Woodward's) Cavalry Regiment")
• 16th (Chenowith's) Cavalry Regiment
• 1st Cavalry Battalion
• 1st (King's) Cavalry Battalion
• 1st Special Cavalry Battalion
• 2nd Cavalry Battalion
• 2nd Special Cavalry Battalion
• 3rd Cavalry Battalion - failed to complete organization
• 3rd Special Cavalry Battalion
• 4th Special Cavalry Battalion
• 9th (Breckinridge's) Cavalry Battalion
• Stoner's Cavalry Battalion
• Buckner Guards, Cavalry
• Morgan's Cavalry Squadron
• Bolen's (Captain) Independent Company, Cavalry
• Dudley's (Captain) Independent Cavalry
• Jenkins' (Captain) Company, Cavalry

Mounted Rifles

• 1st Cavalry Battalion, Mounted Rifles
• 2nd Cavalry Battalion, Mounted Rifles
• 2nd Cavalry, Mounted Infantry
• 3rd Cavalry Battalion, Mounted Rifles ("1st Kentucky Mounted Rifles")
• 3rd Cavalry Battalion, Mounted Rifles ("Jessee's")
• Caudill's Army
• May's Cavalry Battalion, Mounted Rifles
• Morris' Cavalry Regiment, Mounted Rifles

Mounted Infantry

• 3rd Mounted Infantry
• 4th Mounted Infantry
• 5th Mounted Infantry
• 6th Mounted Infantry
• 7th Mounted Infantry
• 8th Mounted Infantry
• 9th Mounted Infantry

Partisan Rangers

• Morehead's Regiment (Partisan Rangers)
• Patton's Cavalry Battalion, Partisan Rangers
• Field's (Captain) Company (Partisan Rangers)
• Rowan's (Captain) Company (Partisan Rangers)

Horse Artillery

• Byrne's (Captain) Company, Horse Artillery

• 1st Kentucky Artillery (Lyon's Artillery Battery or Cobb's Artillery Battery)
• Bell's Artillery Battery
• Byrne's Artillery Battery
• Cumberland Artillery Battery (Cpt Henry D. Green later Cpt. W. H. Hedden)
• Graves' Battery
• Harris'-Arnett's-Corbett's Artillery Battery
• Issaquena Artillery Battery
• Williams' Artillery Battery

Brigades

• First Kentucky Brigade (Orphan Brigade)

Its original commander was John C. Breckinridge, former United States Vice President and candidate for president, who was enormously popular with Kentuckians.

[higgmeister]

Yet, all I stated was that when the South was invaded Southerners fought back for that reason.

[DiogenesLamp]

And now our FRiend, DiogenesLamp, has just admitted there was no "Lincoln's war fleet" at Charleston Harbor when Confederates decided to begin Civil War,

More sophistry. Lincoln decided to start the civil war when he *SENT* the war fleet. The Harriet Lane was merely one of the first to arrive. The rest were still in Transit when Sumter started.

Beauregard's whole intent was to prevent the fort from attacking them at the same time the fleet did. In order to make that happen, he had to attack *BEFORE* the entire fleet showed up.

[DiogenesLamp]

The ratio of Union to Confederate soldiers from Kentucky was over three to one:

How many Irish soldiers served the Union?

More importantly, Why?

Likely the same thing with Kentucky.

[jmacusa]

The South wasn’t ‘’invaded’’ Reb.

The bastards opened fire on Ft. Sumter and the fight was bought to them,

And nothing is going to change that or the outcome of 1865.

So stop the semantics.

[Bull Snipe]

thanks

[higgmeister]

I am telling you that if an army marches into your land under arms you will fight back.   It does not matter at all what the reason, motive, excuse, or cause is, you will fight.

As simple minded as people to this day are, as seen in the "man on the street interviews" such as Jessie Waters did, do you think most people back then understood the issues of the day?   Not a chance!   Southerners fought an invading army.

[higgmeister]

And I'm telling you Reb that when you form an illegal political entity with the intention of committing a violent secession from the lawfully and duly elected government and then open fire on a United Sates military installation you're going to have the fight bought to you.

So stop the shit with the semantics.

You Rebs and your bullshit about “Northern Aggression’’, grow the f up and accept the fact the South started the war AND LOST AND NOTHING, NOTHING ON GOD'S EARTH IS GOING TO CHANGE THAT!

So it was fine for our Original Thirteen Colonies to release themselves from the oppressive British government but when the Federal Union became oppressive, it's fair game to kill the treasonous "Rebs."

I know what every soldier knows: the only thing that counts in the end -- is Power!   Naked, merciless Force!

[jmacusa]

A revolution against a monarchy an ocean away is entirely different from armed , illegal secession against a duly and freely elected government put in office in a free and open election Reb.

Major fail on your part. Try again.