Affixing blame for the Mountain Meadows Massacre

Patheos ^ | SEPTEMBER 21, 2019 | DAN PETERSON

[wita]

Again I should add, I’ve seen worse as far as takeover is concerned.

[wita]

Agree completely.

[wita]

(Though that ‘many’ leaves a LOT of wiggle room.)

My comment was only in reference to the men you quoted not an attempt at wiggling.

I do need to address one other issue. I was going to add a caution in my original post about being careful about putting words unspoken in others mouths. I though better of it in order to give benefit of doubt.

Your quote: ( Remember fellow Christians: the Mormon’s criticize US because they’ve been taught that they CAN’T criticize ANY of their leaders; so they HAVE to vent somehow! )

Can’t is not found in that quote. The quote is “It is wrong to criticize...” I don’t see that as a prohibition. We are cautioned that it can be a poison dangerous to our faith if carried to extreme. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about personal agency. We are commanded by the Gospel of Christ, but no one is standing over us other than our conscience or the Holy Spirit to guide. You have concentrated on the words of the dead members of the Church of Jesus Christ which is why I suggested you might try with the living members, and I applaud your effort in that regard.

You did manage to paint with a broad brush accusing Mormon’s in general of criticizing Christian’s while divorcing said Mormon’s from the Christian family. I’ll accept some Mormon’s are critical, but certainly not all and it is strictly you opinion on whether We belong to the Christian family or not. I would say any LDS members on FR are already sufficiently warned by their opponents if they haven’t already left this site because of the constant harangue by so called Christian’s. Frankly, I don’t think you have helped JR maintain FreeRepublic, by driving away those who agree in principle with FR but rightly refuse to put up with the crap you folks are so good at delivering. Just my maybe not so humble opinion.

I tried my best to keep it civil but didn’t want to completely whitewash my comments. Now that I have spent this time I still haven’t forgotten the polygamy repeal. Later I guess. Maybe I should just point out God’s repeal of the Garden of Eden, and then mankind sorta got repealed because of corruption around the time of the flood. Noah and family started the recovery. The Law of Moses was repealed by Christ. The Jews themselves went from chosen to not so chosen, repeal of the present status of this planet is also due sometime in the future. IOW repeals are not that unusual. Stoning, and an eye for an eye would not be appreciated in today’s society but were certainly a part of early Christianity. I’m sure there are more.

[Elsie]

So true; and I am darned proud of it; too!

[Elsie]

Can’t disagree with that!

[Elsie]

You have concentrated on the words of the dead members of the Church of Jesus Christ which is why I suggested you might try with the living members, and I applaud your effort in that regard.

Oh?

Why?

Why should the living bring a different message than the dead?

When did GOD bring this new message?

Where is it recorded?

[Elsie]

I tried my best to keep it civil but didn’t want to completely whitewash my comments.

You've done a good job.

I know it's hard trying to reconcile the past with the present; when there is so little data to derive stuff from.

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Kinda makes me wonder when GOD changed his mind about these old questions and decided to implement the current new ones.

 

 

 

Temple Recommend Questions: 1857

 1. Have you committed murder by shedding innocent blood, or consenting thereto?
 2. Have you betrayed your brethren or sisters in anything?
 3. Have you committed adultery, by having any connection with a woman that was not your wife, or a man that was not your husband?
 4. Have you taken and made use of property not your own, without the consent of the owner?
 5. Have you cut hay where you had no right to, or turned your animals into another person’s grain or field, without his knowledge and consent?
 6. Have you lied about or maliciously misrepresented any person or thing?
 7. Have you borrowed anything that you have not returned, or paid for?
 8. Have you borne false witness against your neighbor?
 9. Have you taken the name of Deity in vain?
10. Have you coveted anything not your own?
11. Have you been intoxicated with strong drink?
12. Have you found lost property and not returned it to the owner, or used all diligence to do so?
13. Have you branded an animal that you did not know to be your own?
14. Have you taken another’s horse or mule from the range and rode it, without the owner's consent?
15. Have you fulfilled your promises in paying your debts, or run into debt without prospect of paying?
16. Have you taken water to irrigate with, when it belonged to another person at the time you used it?
17. Do you pay your tithing promptly?
18. Do you teach her family the gospel of salvation?
19. Do you speak against your brethren, or against any principle taught in the Bible, Book of Mormon, book of Doctrine and Covenants, revelations given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and the Presidency of the Church as now organized?
20. Do you pray in your family night and morning and attend to secret prayer?
21. Do you wash your body and have your family do so, as often as health and cleanliness require and circumstances will permit?
22. Do you labor six days and rest, or go to the house of worship, on the seventh?
23. Do you preside over your household as a servant of God, and is your family subject to you?
24. Have you labored diligently and earned faithfully the wages paid you by your employers?
25. Do you oppress the hireling in his wages?
26. Have you taken up and converted any stray animal to your own use, or in any manner appropriated one to your benefit, without accounting therefore to the proper authorities?

 

[A Formerly Proud Canadian]

I know what a ‘genius’ is, but I am uncertain what a ‘Genious’ is. Are you a ‘Genious’? Could you explain this new word?

Both ‘islam’ and ‘mormonism’ ARE cults! One is the cult of a male who committed fraud, conspired to murder others, committed adultery, married an underage female, claimed to be the ‘last prophet from God’, and claimed he hot all thos information from a most high angel. The other is the cult of mohamed hence, mohamedanism. No greater a man than Sir Winston Churchill referred to that religion as ‘mohammedanism’. I defer to his judgement.

As far as my words, I’ll leave the judgement up to Jesus, thank you very much.

[Elsie]

These same Mormons had been run from NY to Ohio to Missouri to Illinois and then to Utah from religeous persecution and were unwilling to run again.

I'd hate to call you a liar; so I won't; but the FACTS of this statement are plainly; at least; incorrect.

Many 'Mormons" were NOT run from Missouri. The fearful ones who CHOOSE to follow a false prophet to their deaths on the trek west to Utah, are the ones who RAN.

(A 'true' prophet would have at least WARNED them of the dangers of leaving ).

The ones who DID NOT LEAVE, became the owners of all of the land and possessions left behind.

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Stop off in NAVUOO some day and see the history.

[Elsie]

If this incident was somehow consistent with LDS teachings, as some claim .... how come it has never been repeated?

Beats the SHIZ outta me!!

[Elsie]

If this incident was somehow consistent with LDS teachings, as some claim .... how come it has never been repeated?

I seem to remember that Joseph Smith claimed that GOD wanted him to 'correct' the errors in the KJV of the bible.

And; according to well documented LDS source; Joseph did that very thing.

Now; if GOD wanted the eroors eliminated; why hasn't a Living Prophet® since Smith been commanded by GOD to actually call the Inspireved Version 'scripture' and get in published and replace the error prone (we're told) KJV in the QUAD??

How come THAT has never been done?

GOD change his mind yet again??

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

BDS: Buchanan Derangement Syndrome

[Elsie]

You wonder why they don’t wear little Golden Plates on a necklace.

Why?

They've got CTR stuff!

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Although I guess some enterprising MORMON could decide to scale down THIS an make jewelry out of it...

https://www.google.com/search?q=caracters+lds&nfpr=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDwpyqicXlAhWkmeAKHajbBsoQvgUITSgB&biw=1366&bih=614

[SkyDancer]

A paper with numbers and letters all modern.

[SkyDancer]

Oh and there is no such language as Reformed Egyptian.

[Elsie]

If you call yourself a Christian ... then please cat like one.

....and there isn’t such a thing as mohamedanism, Genious .... its called ‘Islam’

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If you call yourself a member of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints ... then please act like one.

....and there IS such a thing as SPELLCHECK -->; Genious .... try using it.

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Oh, BTW; thanks for showing what Mormon Apologists think about their quarry.

[Elsie]

Please .... your ability to find comparisons between different things rivals the abilities of my neighbors 6 year old!

I hear that now SLC wants to place Hill Cumorah somewhere in Central America.

Is that true??

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https://www.funforlesstours.com/category/book-of-mormon-cruises-tours/

Cultural appropriation??

[Elsie]

Take a break from your religious bigotry and take a cup of coffee!

Can a Temple Worthy® Mormon even SAY the word 'coffee'???

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Green indicates updated linklinks: October 2019

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Orson Pratt proclaimed:

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer).  

Page 273 found HERE https://www.freewebs.com/iglesiadejesucristodeltiempodelfin/Orson%20Pratt%20-%20The%20Seer%20%281854%29.pdf

More confusion:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_and_abominable_church#LDS_Church_publications

 

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Questions put to Joseph Smith:

"'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119). 

Found in section 3 --> http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T3.html  (search for 119)

 

 

"for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12).

Found here --->  https://books.google.com/books?id=PkNOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=different+sects+understood+the+same+passages&source=bl&ots=17G4-8kYsz&sig=ACfU3U0v-r6iFwZgZnOdUB1_ivzkhFiirQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjq0YqUpajlAhUGUK0KHbHxDNUQ6AEwCXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=different%20sects%20understood%20the%20same%20passages&f=false

 

"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Found in section 5 --> http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T3.html  (search for 270)

 

 

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Brigham Young stated this repeatedly:

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses Section 5 page 73);

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses  Section  8 page 171);

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses Section  8 page 199);

"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses Section 10  page 230).

"And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses Section  6 page 24);

 

 

 

 

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Orson Pratt also said:

"This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses , Section 18, page 44);

"But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , Section 18 page 172).

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President John Taylor stated:

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , Section 6 page 167);

"Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , Section 10 page 127).

 

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James Talmage said:

"A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

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President Joseph Fielding Smith said:

"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266).

"For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

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More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear:

"Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265);

"a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.123);

"virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.250);

"Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.290).

 

 

 

President George Q. Cannon said:

"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).  <-- can't find an onlink link, but there ARE a lot of hard copy books for sale tha tinclude this quote.

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated:

"the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , Section 2, page 196).

[Elsie]

If you want to be a Christian .... start by acting like one.

If you want your claims to be accepted; then you'd better start posting some FACTS from what you 'reference'!

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Frankly I have a copy of the Brigham Youngs discoursse ....

[Elsie]

Do you have any sympathy for the Mormons murdered in NY, Ohio, Missouri and Illinois?

I guess that 'turn the other cheek' thing in your QUAD was part of the bad translating hinted about in the Mormon CREED.