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To: StormPrepper; Elsie; svcw; greyfoxx39
A couple things; 1. You're assuming that what you believe is correct and your gospel is the same as what the original apostles preached.

That is absurd. We have abundant manuscript evidences attesting to the preservation of NT texts, with only minor variations which do not effect doctrine, while you and the Muslims have zero MSS evidence to support the substantial doctrinal changes being made that would be required to explain the substantial conflict btwn your religion and Scripture.

In other words, your interpretation is the right interpretation.

That is illogical. Preservation of texts is not the same thing as interpretation of it, though in Mormonic minds it is.

Given that you have no prophets and God hasn't spoken to any of you in 2000 years... I was say that's suspect.

Which is also absurd. Even the veracity of apostlic preaching was subject to testing by the established written word of God, not vice versa, and how much more must the the claims of those claiming to be prophets today (or in the 1800s) be examined in the light of Scripture. Which exposes your demonic Joseph Smith to be lair from Hell, which is where he is now.

The light that is spoken of in 2 Cor means enlightenment or understanding. It is not physical light.

It need not be limited to enlightenment, but I did not say that the Mormon Moroni was a demonic angel of light due to his appearance, and that he was a demonic angel of light is determined by what he said and led to.

What Paul means is, an angel trying to give you knowledge that is different than what we told you, then it's the devil trying to deceive you.

Indeed, and thus Mormonism is of the devil .

I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.", is referring to physical light. It was brighter than the sun.

So a self-deluded lying carnal man familiar with occultic seer stones tells of a vision, as did Muhammad and Emanuel Swedenborg, etc. all of which are also with Smith in Hell. May God grant you repentance unto the acknowledging of the Truth.

52 posted on 09/11/2017 5:16:59 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + folllow Him)
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To: daniel1212; StormPrepper; Normandy; teppe
...while you and the Muslims have zero MSS evidence to support the substantial doctrinal changes being made that would be required to explain the substantial conflict btwn your religion and Scripture.


"I Will Be a Second Mohammed"

In the heat of the Missouri 'Mormon War' of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim,

           "I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was "the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword". So shall it eventually be with us: "Joseph Smith or the Sword!" [1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking and troubling parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new spin.   In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters, but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to 'correct' the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the 'Inspired Version'  in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is 'correcting' it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural 'spin', both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. "I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book." [3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet's own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered 'infidels', pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed's followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Ali ibn Abi lib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." [4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230-231. Fawn Brodie's footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57-59, 97-129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8-9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6-7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408-409.


55 posted on 09/13/2017 4:57:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: daniel1212; StormPrepper; Normandy; teppe
...while you and the Muslims have zero MSS evidence to support the substantial doctrinal changes being made that would be required to explain the substantial conflict btwn your religion and Scripture.


 

 

Text

Original 1830 Edition,

Book of Mormon

Editions 1837, 1888, 1920, 1964, 1978

Title page

Joseph Smith, Jr. The author and proprietor of this work

Joseph Smith, Jr. the translator of this work

Title page

now if there be fault, it be the mistake of men...

now if there are faults, they are the mistakes of men...

1 Ne 13:40

the lamb of God is the Eternal Father

the lamb of God is the son of the Eternal Father

1Nephi 11:21

the Eternal Father

son of the Eternal Father

1 Nephi 11:32

the Everlasting God

son of the Everlasting God

1 Nephi 20:1

words added

or out of the waters of Baptism

2 Nephi 12:9

the mean man boweth down

the mean man boweth not down

Alma 29:4

Yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable

words deleted

Alma 37:21,24

directors

Interpreters

Alma 30:16

it is the effects of a phrensied mind

it is the effect of a frenzied mind

Throughout B of M

now there was seven churches

now there were seven churches

Throughout B of M

there were no blood to shed

there was no blood to shed

Throughout B of M

there is two churches

there are two churches

Throughout B of M

and also much horses

and also many horses

Throughout B of M

these things had not ought to be

these things ought not to be

Throughout B of M

as I was a journeying

as I was journeying ("a" removed)

Throughout B of M

They did prepare for to meet them

They did prepare to meet them ("for" removed)

Throughout B of M

some have arrested the scriptures

some have wrested the scriptures

Throughout B of M

when they had arriven

when they had arrived

Throughout B of M

having no respects to persons

having no respect to persons ("s" removed)

Throughout B of M

they had fell into great errors

they had fallen into great errors

Throughout B of M

which was wrote upon the plates

which was written upon the plates

Throughout B of M

they were exceeding fraid

they were exceedingly afraid

Throughout B of M

they had began to possess the land

they had begun to possess the land

Throughout B of M

this they done that they might provide food

this they did that they might provide food

Alma 23:1

nor neither of their brethren

nor either of their brethren

Mosiah 21:28; Ether 4:1

king Benjamin

Mosiah (Benjamin was dead at this time)

1 Nephi 12:18

Jesus Christ

Messiah (Jesus had not yet been revealed to the Nephites)

1 Nephi 20:1

come forth out of the waters of Judah

or out of the waters of baptism (these words added after "Judah"

2 Nephi 16:2

seraphims

seraphim (verse copied from older copy of KJV which made a gramatical error)

 
This chart courtesy of  Jerald and Sandra Tanner.

56 posted on 09/13/2017 5:00:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: daniel1212; StormPrepper; Normandy; teppe
Yeah; there is more...
 
 
Book of Mormon change: Instead of being the "principal ancestors" of American Indians, Lamanites are now......�among the ancestors of the American Indians.�
 [The original phrase and the changes are noted in Red and bold for emphasis]

In the Introduction to the Book of Mormon the second paragraph reads:

�The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of the two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites.
After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.

This was included in the first printing runs of the Doubleday Edition.


In the latest printing of the Doubleday Edition of the Book of Mormon, the last sentence was changed to read:

�...After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.

The interesting thing is this change is not published anywhere. Additionally, the new Doubleday Edition still lists itself as a first edition. I am no publisher, but my understanding was when you made changes, you listed it as a second, third, etc. edition. The second edition also indicates that it is still first printing, which would be impossible since the change was made.


57 posted on 09/13/2017 5:02:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: daniel1212
What I said here:
[sp]A couple things; 1. You're assuming that what you believe is correct and your gospel is the same as what the original apostles preached.

Has nothing to do with your response here:
[daniel1212]That is absurd. We have abundant manuscript evidences attesting to the preservation of NT texts, with only minor variations which do not effect doctrine, while you and the Muslims have zero MSS evidence to support the substantial doctrinal changes being made that would be required to explain the substantial conflict btwn your religion and Scripture.

Again you're assuming you're interpreting scripture correctly and that your doctrine is correct. But you have no prophet to a approve your conclusions or correct your mistakes. You're in the same boat that the Pharisees were in. They had scripture too but rejected the prophets and relied solely on tradition and their own understanding ...and got it completely wrong.

That is illogical. Preservation of texts is not the same thing as interpretation of it, though in Mormonic minds it is.

Childish insults. And an all around ignorant statement. Preservation of text is a red herring you just introduced into this discussion. We are discussing you're inability to interpret scripture correctly. Which is true, because without a prophet there's no way for you to understand the depth and scope of the doctrine being discussed in the New Testament. This is why there are thousands of denominations and the gap of understanding on simple things such as baptism.

Which is also absurd. Even the veracity of apostlic[sic] preaching was subject to testing by the established written word of God, not vice versa, and how much more must the the claims of those claiming to be prophets today (or in the 1800s) be examined in the light of Scripture. Which exposes your demonic Joseph Smith to be lair from Hell, which is where he is now.

And you have it all totally backwards. Why do you think the Jews stoned the prophets? Why did they crucify Jesus? Because they would never yield to the fact they were wrong.

The final arbiter of truth is never the scriptures. James explains,
James 1:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


We are to go to God first in prayer and He may use the scriptures to teach us what the truth is...

Indeed, and thus Mormonism is of the devil .

Which is exactly what the Jews said about Jesus...

The vast majority of people will not be saved even those that claim to believe in Jesus. Jesus Himself made that very clear. The elect will come out of the world and find the right path that leads to salvation. The rest will understand their mistakes at the final judgement and be cast out. I don't need to call you names or cast you down to hell...I trust the Lord will award each of us according to our works.

They their fruits ye shall know them was the promise. What was Joseph Smith's fruits?
58 posted on 09/13/2017 6:59:49 AM PDT by StormPrepper
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To: daniel1212

http://www.challengemin.org/WITNESS.PDF


59 posted on 09/13/2017 9:30:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: daniel1212
Btw, can you explain why you're exempt from this scripture:

Amos 3
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.


As Paul states in 2 Tim 3 that false religions would reject the Prophet of the last days. How does that not apply to you?
68 posted on 09/13/2017 1:37:49 PM PDT by StormPrepper
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