Posted on 01/29/2016 7:23:44 AM PST by Nextrush
As we enter Day 28 of the standoff at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, here are the latest developments:
And then there were four. After a series of arrests and voluntary departures, the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge was left in the hands of just four people Thursday night. The live-streams that had fully documented the earlier days of the nearly monthlong occupation petered out. As occupiers stopped answering call from the outside, they apparently kept up negotiations over the terms of their departure. Talks with the FBI were continuing "around the clock," said Greg Bretzing, the special agent in charge in Portland.
As state troopers trained their guns on Robert "LaVoy" Finicum along a secluded eastern Oregon highway he reached twice for a pocket that police say contained a 9 mm semi-automatic handgun. That's when they fatally shot Finicum, a video released Thursday by the FBI appears to show....
A network of patriot groups from across the Northwest issued a call Thursday morning for supporters to flood into Burns....
The 154-year old law under which Ammon Bundy and others were arrested this week was created to deal with a nation torn apart by war. But it made sense for the armed occupiers who holed up at Oregon's Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to be charged under the Civil-War era statute, experts say, because like the Confederates, the occupiers rejected federal power....
(Excerpt) Read more at oregonlive.com ...
Yeah, the guy looked to me like an older guy trying to walk through knee deep snow with his hands up. Not easy.
The witness in the car could hear the gunshots and see their effect on LaVoy, where the video from the drone had no audio.
Yes, aerial footage released. No dashcam or bodycam yet.
Full footage here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ
Vehicle was stopped by LEOs on a straightaway.
LEOs drew weapons but never closed in on vehicle.
Apparently something got driver (Finicum) agitated as seen in video. He sped off from LEOs.
Around a curve ahead, a roadblock had been set up previously by LEOs.
Vehicle taps brakes approaching curve, then full brakes when roadblock comes into view.
Vehicle veers away from roadblock to left side, barely missing a LEO.
Finicum exits vehicle with hands up. LEOs approach, Finicum reaches down and seems to be going around and around as he walks/stumbles.
Finicum is shot dead and lies on the ground.
Interesting theme that the ranchers are living free off of the govt., or free off of ‘our’ land.
This from Portland!
and peacefully leaving after about 3 or 4 days.
= = =
Guarenteed free out if all they leave behind is empty wine bottles and used condoms.
“Any thoughts?” - You asked for it...
I always find these things intriguing. I like to compare attempts like this in Oregon to much larger historical things and wonder why some things succeed and others fail, especially such as the difference between the American and French revolutions. Here’s my criticism of what the Oregon “coup” could’ve prepared for:
-If you don’t want to get caught, don’t leave your secured area.
-”Mechanics” should never do any negotiation or public communication. Have a separate group of “negotiators” do that for you. Negotiators and mechanics should not have any specific operational or personal knowledge of each other in case of arrest and interrogation.
-When negotiating with the authorities, remember that they are talking to bring you down to a peacable arrest and taking note of any evidence you provide - not to meet your demands. They don’t care about your politics. They’re doing a job enforcing the law, whether you like that law or not, and they’re usualy pretty good at it. Just because you’re “in the revolution” doesn’t mean they are. You’re just a criminal to them.
-Know your jurisdictions. Is the local mayor/governor sympathetic to your cause? Even though the park was on Fed property, most of them appeared only after the insistence of the Oregon governor (big lib).
-Attempting to negotiate the law has to be done w/politicians, the general public, and the groups on the other side of the law you oppose, not the enforcers of that law. Know both your audience and your advesary.
-Communicating w/enforcers allows the opportunity to pinpoint your location. Another reason to have separate negotiators.
-Be aware that you are being surveilled, and may have your comms disrupted. Stock up for siege in advance if you’re into this kind of “protest”.
-Comms can be blocked by both frequency and code, in channelized designs.
-Be aware that typical techniques may mean you’re holed up w/someone from the “other side” who has long ago infiltrated your group.
-Know that a road block means there are more than just people on the road. There may be others on all sides off the road all around the location at least 25 yds out.
-Be still when facing arrest unless you’re into death by cop. Don’t panic. Panic kills. If you can’t control that under high stress, maybe reconsider your participation as a mechanic from the get go.
Hopefully there will be some ground based cameras with audio. Some idiot was complaining the airborne video didn't have audio.
The target of a fusillade probably will overstate the shot count.
The eye witness who was in the car and released her testimony prior to this video said the LEO’s started shooting at them when they were originally stopped. This has her testimony and the video together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_u_9DSUv6c&feature=share
Good analysis here. http://libertylineup.com/2016/01/29/updated-analysis-of-fbi-video-oregon-standoff/
Regardless of the reasonableness (or not) of the actual shooting, Mr. Finicum took several actions which led up to the final result. Had he chose a different path he would be in Portlanfd with his compatriots.
Normally my commentary for the Portlanders, that are happy with the results of this situation, would be to ask them where they planned to get their next burger. Of course they are all dope smoking vegans so that would be useless. It does still present an idea for what would have been a much more effective protest.
The occupation, while armed, of the wildlife refuge was stupid. Out in the middle of nowhere, with guns, and also acting in ways that at least one local BLM employee reported to authorities. That is a loser.
Take 10 or 20 cowboys (unarmed), 50 head of cattle and drive them through downtown Portland, or Salem (the capital village of Oregon) and you have a real protest, with a trail of poop in its path. Yes, it would cost money for the cattle, horses, and some fines for cleanup, but it would be so worth it.
Article is excerpted here “Our media communications team was up for most the night analyzing the FBI video, and combined with our eye witness accounts, interestingly when we gathered to discuss, we had all come to the same conclusion: LaVoy Finicum was murdered. The FBI and troopers were there to shoot to kill.
The FBI statement accused LaVoy of taking action to pull his gun. We believe this is false.
We know that LaVoy was willing to die for the ranchers (and all Americans)and they were there to educate and to help the Hammond’s get out of jail. This represented their and every farmer and rancher’s decades-long struggle for their property rights being taken away by the BLM and constant changes to regulations making it impossible for farmers and ranchers to maintain their livelihoods. LaVoy wrote a novel – Only Bloodshed and Suffering – about restoring Liberty. He made it clear from the first interviews at the refuge that he would rather die than go to prison. And he did.
Here’s the FBI statement
You are seeing right before your eyes how the federal government works with media outlets to spin the narrative. We observed the aerial video stopping it second by second. We need AUDIO! We need the dash cams. Aerial is not specific enough.
Without audio we have no way of knowing when the shots were fired and if they match up to LaVoy’s physical actions.
We can’t hear what LaVoy was saying when he got out of the car, nor the gunfire that our witnesses in the car told us they heard.
Our eye witnesses have told us that LaVoy got out of the car with his arms up, one account telling us he was saying “Shoot me, just shoot me!†And that he was shot in the face.
Our team has reviewed the video second by second. We believe there are flaws and missing pieces in the FBI narrative. We also know that Ammon told his wife that the FBI agents were agitated about what had happened, that it didn’t go right and they shouldn’t have fired on him and killed him.
The FBI’s narrative does not match what the eye witnesses have told us. The FBI agent for Oregon, Greg Bretzing, in charge of the operation, says that LaVoy reached for a gun on the left side of his jacket and then they shot him. So we looked closely, and it just does not measure up.
(Where’s Al Sharpton when we need him?)
What we see, which matches up with what our eye witnesses have told us, is that LaVoy was shot multiple times, as Victoria Sharp testified in her audio which we posted earlier.
Lisa, Ammon’s wife called us while I was at the Finicum’s home and reported the same.
We believe the FBI’s false narrative is that LaVoy was going for his gun on the left or in his left pocket.
You will hear all day long and in the weeks to come that LaVoy Finicum reached for his gun in his left pocket. That’s the narrative the FBI and the controlled Big Media wants you to hear.
Yes, we know he did not have his holster – he wears his gun on the right – he’s right-handed. We will need more information on this point. But if the FBI does not show – or have possession of footage of the inspection of his body on the crime scene (the FBI crime), then it will be left to eye witness testimony from the people in LaVoy’s car against that of the FBI – both hearsay testimony.
What we see is that LaVoy exited his car, arms up. He was then hit in the left side of his torso, and his upheld arms came down to hold his torso. That would be a natural reaction to pain.
Then you see him get disoriented and try to keep his balance in the deep snow.
Then he is hit again, and grabs his left chest. Another natural reaction to pain.
Immediately after that, the other gunman shoots him down with another shot, most likely the one to the head, a fatal blow that throws him backwards to the ground.”
Good analysis, but it was more speculative than my description. I was merely factually describing what I saw in the video.
One thing I did forget to point out was that when the LEOs approached Finicum, they had their weapons drawn on him.
“would be so worth it.”
And more effective. On another thread, someone recommended an “all-female” protest (at least on the face of it) with the slogan “we feed our children off the land and the govt makes our children go hungry”.
They start with a conclusion, and then latch on to a supporting rational. They need anyone that stands on a principle to be denigrated so they don’t feel inferior. All the leftist media has to do is manufacture a narrative that does this, and they accept it without question. It’s easy for them since it requires no thought true understanding.
I would submit, they WERE infiltrated. One of the occupants of the refuge supplied inside conversations to federal authorities. This is why they are being charged with conspiracy to...
Again, this wouldn't be a hill I'd choose to defend. Most Americans still have too much to lose. It's not that bad...yet.
These guyz did not think this thing through. Also, it appears they allowed themselves to be lulled into thinking they had free travel to and fro.
I can empathize with their cause to the extent that folks in America are just plain FED up with government intruding into every aspect of our lives, spying on personal communications, tracking folks, surveilling innocent citizens and in some cases oppressing overtly utilizing the IRS, BATF, OSHA and EPA. First case comes to mind, “True the Vote organization” here in Texas. Kathy Engelbreck, or something close to that name.
That said, if we didn't have law enforcement, think about the chaos that would ensue in our communities. I still think the FBI has some good patriotic, hard working folks that do truly care about justice and civil society.
When one feels they need to take a stand...that's their decision, but grandiose illusions of riding away on a white horse after beating your opponent are just not realistic. Chances are, you will lose. You may leave a legacy with those who love you or look up to you, but folks should think of all the consequences.
Some of these guys like the Bundys have wives, children. It is likely they will not see their families for a very long time. Sad really. In their minds, this objective had to be real important to give up so much. Would you not agree?
“this objective had to be real important to give up so much”
Yes, I take that as a given and I am sympathetic to their cause in this case. I would’ve like to see them achieve their goals of getting rid of gov intrusion.
It’s one thing to sit on your own personal property and say something like “I’m not leaving so make me.”, quite another to go to take over another location.
Of course, it’s harder to defend your own “castle” in that circumstance. You’d need immediate support of all your neighbors for one.
But if their only real goal here was to bring attention to an issue, to get renegotiation w/BLM, or get Hammond out of prison, this was not the way to do it,
In fact, if they wanted to use direct and physical means to get a prison release, that’d mean taking over the prison, not a park. Or, arranging an escape, see what I mean?
If BLM, you couldn’t just stop at one park building. You’d have to keep on expanding, and have the force to do it.
Oops, hit post too soon. See prior. To continue:
So if their immediate goal was truly a political one as opposed to a physical one, they should have stuck to that realm. If the goal was truly physical, they not only picked the wrong target, they did it with full disclosure - everyone knew who the mechanics were.
So it seems to me they mixed goals to start with and what was probably impromptu, should’ve been planned a bit better.
I’m sorry to see Finicum killed over this. On the last vid he looked pretty panicked to me but I could be wrong. It would’ve been better to still have him in the fight, so to say.
What perhaps is even sorrier, is that his death probably won’t be widely perceived as sympathetic at the same time real criminals get that sympathy thanks to our communist press.
I pretty much agree with what you’re saying, but I’m not out there either.
The difference would have been that in the spirit of civil disobedience I would have had people staying and when the authorities chose to tighten the noose with roadblocks and so on unarmed people would have approached them like civil rights protestors approached Southern law enforcement in the 1960’s.
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