Why I'm not a Libertarian

I'm 63 years old and in my lifetime, I have been political almost all of it. In my youth, the Viet Nam War was topic one, every day, all day. If you were against the war, you were a Democrat and for the war, a Republican. It was an easy line to see and pretty much lasted through Nixon into the Carter years. During Carter, we were reminded that the economy didn't have to remain bullet proof just because we were Americans. This is where I was intrigued by the fledgling libertarians that had the "pure" economic theory that was almost irrefutable when you had a debate about cause and effect. I was taken for awhile, but then as I dug deeper, I saw flaws, like legalized drugs, a non defense, defense, and a real weakness in the right and wrong God thing. I had watched some of my friends die and go to jail over drugs and I felt if the US wanted to play checkers instead of chess with foreign policy, we would end up with a different flag to salute if we weren't careful. It was the lack of religion that really concerned me though. Many I spoke with were for abortion so the woman could exercise her rights to her own body. I would always retort, "What about the babies rights?" Then it would immediately slide into "If you can kill a baby, you can kill the disabled or mentally deficient." It was about the time DR. Death( or Kevorkian) was big in the news. I had to just call myself a conservative and not libertarian or even a Republican. The moral questions always kept me from going whole hog.

Then the Reagan years and pure bliss for 8 years allowed me to calm down and just make money and raise my family. Bush 41 was weak, but I learned to live with it until Carter. The first drop of the hat and taxes were raised, recession was moving in, and Hillary Care was right in our face. Then Gingrich and the revolution moved in and put Clinton in thumb screws. We had the biggest economic boom I can remember due to Republicans holding just the growth of the government down. It was a living laboratory in front of everyone with what works and what doesn't. Nobody learned a damn thing. Bush 43 came in and we had war, but we also had many years of under 5% unemployment. The war was taxing, but we did mediocre in the money department.

Of course, for whatever reason the wars were unpopular and the libertarians showed up again telling us that everything would be better if we just retreated from Iraq and Afghanistan and came home. Well, here we are, out of both wars and reluctant to pop a cap anywhere.

Obama came in with a bad economy due to Democrats allowing anyone with a pulse to buy a house and Bush got the blame even though he and McCain both had hearings warning of the danger. The average skull full of mush blamed Bush, for whatever reason. They can't really tell you what he did to cause the crash, but hey, he was prez when it happened. Our country was ATTACKED from Afghanistan and Iraq was violating a cease fire for several years when they tried to assassinate Bush 41. Frankly, I don't know what my last straw would be, but trying to kill dad might just be it. We knew he had WMD, had already used them, and was denying inspections for months, even though that was a requirement of the cease fire.

Now there's the history. Today, libertarianism is rearing it's head again, but this time, Young people are coming by the droves and it's scares me. They used to just vote Democrat to legalize dope, you know,......... the most important legislation of all time. Now they hear they will have to pay back the debt and that finally, after 40 years wakes them up to the delima of more food stamps, more debt. But then the old bugaboo comes up of right and wrong. We have already murdered 55 million babies, but now, after 225 years, buggery, is now a right. These mental giants are now saying we have been wrong for thousands of years and misunderstand what God really meant. If you watch any talking head shows, it doesn't really matter what flavor they are, they now smugly proclaim so and so is a bigot or homophobe.

It doesn't matter what channel or what show, it has been settled that gay marriage is coming to America. Just as an example, FNC's Greg Gutfeld is very bright and right on many issues, but he has decided that sodomy is normal, and if you don't like it, get ready to be shunned cursed, and generally ridiculed. He at least isn't against defending America, but he also pushed the legalized drug agenda and apparently thinks it's a right to be hired with drugs in your system, even a cop or fireman. What level of impairment would make "your right" illegal,....no comment.

I will tell you, I'm all with the libertarian economic theory,.....it has been shown to work, for thousands of years. But the reluctance to "get involved" in foreign entanglements, just means the entanglers will be on your shore toot suit. I know the quote from George Washington, but a little more history will show we were fighting the Barbary Pirates almost immediately. The fights with Mexico and Cuba, among others were just because they were close to home, but today, we are a missile away from an attack from almost anyone. You have to stay involved or it will eventually come home to roost. A quick look at ISIS right now shows they are working on a coast to coast Caliphate in the Middle East and eventually, someone in the world will have to do something. Who do you think that will be? As far as I'm concerned, we are, right now, engaged in a perpetual war. It may take several different names with differing players, but make no mistake, the babies born today are raised up to kill the infidel. I don't rejoice when an errant bomb kills women and children, but realistically that's just one less bullet for later. My father knew his bombs from his B-24 were hitting private homes, hospitals and schools, but he knew if he bailed out, there was a good chance a 12 year old would stick a pitchfork in him as soon as he landed in a field.

The younger people that have seen what I've seen, still think they are idealistic and stick to the pure doctrine of libertarianism, but the reality is, wars need to be fought, dope is bad even for the people that don't harm others, and there is such a thing as right and wrong and those morals come from God. If we change morals, what morals will we keep? The morals of Molech and Baal where children were thrown in the fire? The morals of Sodom that was judged by God?

We can cut spending and taxes, and the size of government and agree on a balanced budget and printing money. I just can't embrace a philosophy that has NEVER WORKED.

For those that think it's never been tried, We have a libertarian right now that is allowing the world and the US to disintegrate because he doesn't want to get involved. Just look around and you will see what libertarians have wrought. The drug laws are a mess, and the world is erupting into chaos. The borders are disintegrating and they love it. Nationalism just gets in the way of economics and the adjusting of the wages downward to the lowest common denominator. Just think how grand it would be if we took in the $2 a day people to peel our grapes for us and wash our feet. If Obama would just adhere to their libertarianism in economics. Unfortunately, he is a Keynesian, another failed theory.

There are many libertarians in the Republican party, but that is only because they can't be elected on their own. Rand Paul will draw a percentage from conservatives and cause trouble for real conservatives and sap their money. Make him Treasury Secretary or something, but he will never be president. Right now, the Tea Party is a mixture of libertarians and conservatives. I will vote conservative and pick a candidate out of the Tea Party to do it. Pure libertarianism,.......NOPE!

That is a fake argument for your fighting conservatism.

The feds DO have the right to decide who is married in the military, and they always have, they also have control over their own medical facilities.

Quit this game playing.

Gay marriage, legal dope and abortion are all libertarian. I don’t guess people are really reading my posts. Not responding to Putin and pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan are all libertarian ideas. No more foreign entanglements, ya know. If you go to a pot party and talk to these morons, they are all libertarians. Legalizing dope has been the answer to all American ills for decades now. Ask a libertarian their opinion on gay marriage. Now who else is in favor of gay marriage? It’s wacky you don’t see that.

That is a fake argument for your fighting conservatism.

Shove it out your ass.
Let me put it this way: show, from the Constitution, the authority of the federal government to define marriage.

The feds DO have the right to decide who is married in the military,

Nope.
To say this is to assert that persons serving in the military are property or have relinquished to the federal government the power of attorney ERT marriage.

and they always have,

Right. [/sarc]

they also have control over their own medical facilities.

And in another few hours the sun will rise.

One thing that is inescapable, is that you will do whatever it takes to stay with your pro-abortion/gay marriage agenda.

Obama only created gay marriage for the military, federal employment and immigration during his administration, yet you fight to retain it with tooth and nail.

ANY liberal could do the exact same thing you are doing, as you defend the status quo and oppose the pro-life movement and pro-marriage conservatives.

One thing that is inescapable, is that you will do whatever it takes to stay with your pro-abortion/gay marriage agenda.

…apparently you're an idiot, incapable of understanding basic English sentences.
I am not pro-abortion, nor am I pro gay-marriage.
Your tactic of labeling everyone who does not perfectly agree with you as such will only drive people away.

Obama only created gay marriage for the military, federal employment and immigration during his administration, yet you fight to retain it with tooth and nail.

You refuse to talk about the court's complicity/role in all of this and ascribe sole accountability to Obama?
I loathe the guy, but you're an idiot if you think it's all Obama's fault — doubly so for failing to acknowledge the courts and their actions.

ANY liberal could do the exact same thing you are doing, as you defend the status quo and oppose the pro-life movement and pro-marriage conservatives.

…I'm not doing what you think I'm doing — but then again, you only care that I don't perfectly agree with you.

The problem is corporate status.

The government uses the 14th Amendment to invoke, and then presume, corporate status on the People.

What this doors is reverse the relationship of the People and the government. Under the original Constitution, the government was derived from the People, the People had rights outside government reach, and the government was limited by nature.

But incorporation flips this relationship, because the government is the “creator” of the corporation. So regarding corporations, the government has unlimited power, and corporations have limited privileges granted by the government, and existing at the pleasure of the government.

So you see, all of the excesses of the government at every level - federal, state, county and city - come from incorporation. So the mechanisms by which the incorporation of human beings is presumed is THE root issue, the enabling concept of tyranny by definition, because it has no limits by definition.

Unfortunately however, this mechanism is hidden in plain sight through its very commonality. Everyone thinks they know what incorporation is, but few really do. The ultimate irony is that we have not lost a single right - they just aren’t being used anymore. So it’s really not a master of rebellion, because we already have the goal. We’re just not using it.

So regarding corporations, the government has unlimited power, and corporations have limited privileges granted by the government, and existing at the pleasure of the government. […] So it’s really not a matter of rebellion, because we already have the goal. We’re just not using it.

And what happens when we use the right but the government takes umbrage?
Specifically, when the government sees it as a corporation indulging in privileges not granted and you see it as exercising rights?
Is there any way, at all, where you can invalidate the presumption that you are a corporation?

I take it then that you believe that morality has no part in any laws, right?

Do you believe that women should be able to abort(murder) their unborn babies?

Do you believe that perverts, A.K.A. Homosexuals should be able to control what you say or do with respect to their lifestyles, even if it violates your religion?

Do you believe as the founders did, that the system of governance that they created was only for a Christian nation and that if this nation walked away from God, that it would destroy itself?

Do you believe, as the founders did, that it was OK for the states to outlaw Buggery or Sodomy?

Morality is a necessary foundation for a civil society.

God himself defined the type of laws that should govern a nation in the Old Testament of the Bible, they included laws against Sodomy, they included all types of laws where morality is concerned. Christ made it clear that he did not come to condemn the law, in fact, he declared quite clearly not to change one jot or tittle where the law was concerned. He said he came to fulfill the law, not destroy it.

If you are truly a Christian, you cannot compartmentalize your life by putting your politics outside your Christianity.

This is where Libertarians fail their Christianity, their God, and their conservatism.

Sure you can. You just don't demand that the government force everyone else to act like a moral conservative Christian.

I take it then that you believe that morality has no part in any laws, right?

Do you believe that women should be able to abort(murder) their unborn babies?

Do you believe that perverts, A.K.A. Homosexuals should be able to control what you say or do with respect to their lifestyles, even if it violates your religion?

Do you believe as the founders did, that the system of governance that they created was only for a Christian nation and that if this nation walked away from God, that it would destroy itself?

Do you believe, as the founders did, that it was OK for the states to outlaw Buggery or Sodomy?

Morality is a necessary foundation for a civil society.

God himself defined the type of laws that should govern a nation in the Old Testament of the Bible, they included laws against Sodomy, they included all types of laws where morality is concerned. Christ made it clear that he did not come to condemn the law, in fact, he declared quite clearly not to change one jot or tittle where the law was concerned. He said he came to fulfill the law, not destroy it.

If you are truly a Christian, you cannot compartmentalize your life by putting your politics outside your Christianity.

This is where Libertarians fail their Christianity, their God, and their conservatism.

Is there any way, at all, where you can invalidate the presumption that you are a corporationi?

Yes, there are a number of ways. Making what is called a "special appearance" challenging (de facto corporate, i.e. administrative or statutory) jurisdiction is a direct refutation of corporate presumption, and forces the government to prove their jurisdiction or drop their case. This is most easily accomplished by simply carefully reading the law, which many times contains extremely explicit applicability definitions that can simply be invoked directly.

Another thing that can be done is to lobby Congress to remove the presumption of corporate applicability from laws in the first place, or at least raise the bar in its evaluation or lawful presumption by government authorities, and make abuse of this issue trigger the loss of all indemnification for any government employee who misuses it.

But the biggest thing would be to simply spread the word that this is an issue at all. Virtually no person in America except legal professionals even know this subject exists, let alone that it is routinely used to remove every right they have in favor of limited privileges.

How to spread that word is the biggest problem. But success in spreading it is another problem, because people are liable to believe that if corporate law doesn't apply, then no law applies, and in that case they'd run amuck and it would be chaos - a catastrophe. So common law courts would have to be acknowledged once again, to prevent this perceived void in applicable law.

If this sounds overwhelming, your beginning to truly understand the problem.

Maybe I could do a brochure on it…

Maybe I could do a brochure on it…

If I can help, just let me know. I wrote an application of it to Robert's Obamacare decision called One Stone, Two Powers: How Chief Justice Roberts Saved America. Read through that to get an idea of how these concepts apply to actual laws.

Also read it for a reality check, because the Chief Justice himself invokes these two different powers to explain and justify his own ruling.

Do you realize that a DU member could sign up here and argue with us pro-life, pro-marriage conservatives all day, year after year, using the same technique that you do, fight our politics, our party, our candidates, our legislative proposals, everything, just by using your methods.

The federal government has a lot to do with abortion, and not just abortion on military bases for federal employees, but in foreign policy, and their national issue influence is immeasurable.

Here is just one example:
*The Mexico City Policy requires all non-governmental organizations (NGOs) that receive federal funding to refrain from performing or promoting abortion services as a method of family planning with non-US government funds in other countries. The policy has not been in effect since January 23, 2009. Since 1973, USAID has followed the Helms Amendment ruling, banning use of US Government funds to provide abortion as a method of family planning anywhere in the world.

The policy was enacted by Republican President Ronald Reagan in 1984, rescinded by Democratic President Bill Clinton in January 1993, re-instituted in January 2001 as President George W. Bush took office, and rescinded January 23, 2009, 2 days after Democratic President Barack Obama took office.*

Adam Smith and Edmund Burke were good personal friends, and their theories were intended to work together, not be regarded as two separate and mutually exclusive ideas.

I confess that Edmund Burke is only a name to me; I have never read any writings of his. But what you say is not at all surprising. Adam Smith himself is after all hardly unfamiliar with conservative social thought; he wrote only two books of which I’m aware, one of which is renowned Wealth of Nations - and the other is entitled Theory of Moral Sentiments . . . from which I frequently have occasion to quote:
The natural disposition is always to believe. It is acquired wisdom and experience only that teach incredulity, and they very seldom teach it enough. The wisest and most cautious of us all frequently gives credit to stories which he himself is afterwards both ashamed and astonished that he could possibly think of believing.
The man whom we believe is necessarily, in the things concerning which we believe him, our leader and director, and we look up to him with a certain degree of esteem and respect. But as from admiring other people we come to wish to be admired ourselves; so from being led and directed by other people we learn to wish to become ourselves leaders and directors.
I think that an excellent explanation of the behavior of “sheeple” and of the motives of journalists which explains why journalists tend to be socialists.

It's early, so I will have to digest what you are saying. Off the cuff, I don't agree. I'm sure there might be some sort of case to be made, but as of right now, I don't see it.

In my mind we are losing our rights because we have been convinced we are a democracy and not a republic. If 51% votes to lose the second amendment, would we lose it? What we are seeing now is the public is slowly losing the thought that sodomy is an abomination so the liberals and hedonists "claim" a right they never had. Enough people have been convinced that our Founders were Deists and the Constitution didn't come out of the Bible. We should have individual rights and responsibilities, but for decades now we have had group or "corporate" status. Let me read the supplied link.

Sorry, I couldn’t finish your screed. Dazzling with BS is not the same as making a point. The reason Obamacare is illegal is it forces people to pay a fine just for breathing in America. Call it a tax or a penalty, you still have to participate just for being here. I don’t see the connection with libertarianism. Roberts was wrong. Paying attention to minutia is not the same as looking to Original Intent. This is why most people hate lawyers. They can argue for 2 days to make you thing white is black.

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