The AR-15 and steel cased ammo - how to make Wolf or Tula shoot reliably.

Tinkerer's Blog ^ | 5/20/2012 | squashpup

[FLAMING DEATH]

We've all been there...walking around the local gun store (or, as I like to call it, the Magic Goody Shop) and seen Russian-made steel cased .223 ammo selling for quite a bit less than the brass versions of the same rounds. And, many of us have fallen to temptation and bought scads of the stuff, thinking of how much money we'll save, and how we can plink 'til our heart's content for pennies on the dollar.

And then, many of us have faced the bitter disappointment of repeated malfunctions and losing money when we give away a large pile of ammo that simply won't function properly in our guns.

I've seen quite a few stories of people trying to shoot steel cased ammo out of an AR-15 rifle with less than satisfactory results. The most common issue is the dreaded "stuck case", where the case wedges itself so firmly in the chamber that the extractor simply doesn't have the "oomph" to move it. In fact, most often, the only remedy is to put a cleaning rod down the bore of your gun and whack it with a hammer.

That's what I had to do. My AR was particularly finicky, barely firing 50 rounds of Wolf or Tula before hanging up completely, bringing an early ending to a day at the range. The thing would run like a champ all day long on brass, even crappy brass, but a couple boxes of Tula would bring it to its knees.

I began reading about this on the Internets, and it is a common problem. Many have the completely WRONG idea about what causes this, however.

First, it is NOT caused by a "lacquer coating" cooking off and leaving its residue in the chamber. If you don't believe me, get a spent shell and hit it with a blowtorch. Nothing's coming off of that sucker. If you've bought your ammo in the past few years, it doesn't even have lacquer on it.

Second, many people believe it is because the steel expands, and, being less flexible than brass, wedges itself in the chamber. That's not true either. But, steel being less flexible that brass does contribute to the problem.

The answer is simpler (and fortunately more correctable) than either of those.

Steel doesn't expand like brass does in the chamber. This allows a slight gap around the cartridge case upon firing. That gap admits powder residue and carbon into the chamber, which begins building up on the sides. Pretty soon, the dimensions of the chamber are too small to allow the casing to move freely in and out. The next time the bolt slams a round into the chamber, it wedges there, unable to be moved without physical intervention.

"Well," you might say, "the 7.62 x 39 rounds that I shoot are steel cased, and they don't have that problem". No, they don't. But, it is not because the blowback of residue into the chamber isn't happening. It is because of the shape of the round itself. The sides of the 7.62 x 39 are tapered enough that they can still overcome friction with the sides of the chamber. The .223 is far straighter, and so it is far more difficult for the extractor to overcome the frictional forces of the now smaller chamber that has a good hold on the straight walls of the shell case.

This is the problem I had with my rifle. On multiple occasions, always after firing less than 50 rounds of steel cased ammo, I have had a major stoppage with my AR. It always involved a spent case hanging up in the chamber, it always was impossible to clear without jamming a cleaning rod down the barrel and knocking it out, and it almost always put my AR out of action until I could take it home and work on it.

Once, while in the presence of a buddy of mine, I experienced the problem and he said, "You need to run a little brass in every mag to keep it cleaned out."

That didn't make sense to me. How did brass keep the action clean? Besides, common knowledge was that you never mix steel and brass when shooting...that mixing the two would only make this problem worse.

Then I read this article on the Box O' Truth http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm about steel case and brass cased ammo. Although their hypothesis confirmed my friend's statement that brass ammo could help clean the chamber, they stopped short of recommending (or figuring out) that running steel and brass together can make a gun run more reliably.

I figured it was up to me to test it.

I started by cleaning the chamber thoroughly and soaking it down with CLP. I then loaded my mags with one round of brass case for every 9 of steel. Then, I headed to the range.

Fully expecting to get a stoppage before the end of mag number two, the AR kept eating the steel case well past that point. The brass coming out eventually carried a considerable amount of black deposit on the outside of it. It was rock hard and couldn't be scraped off with a fingernail. I did a variety of shooting, including slow firing (shooting once every 20 seconds or so), sustained slow firing (shooting once every five seconds), fast firing (shooting as fast as I could pull the trigger) and even some bump firing (near automatic rates of fire).

The AR had two hiccups, probably attributable to the Russian ammo's lower power. On the first, the round didn't quite come all the way out of the mag. I gave the bottom of the mag a whack and it kept going. The next, the bolt didn't appear to come back far enough to grab the next round. A quick pull of the charging handle fixed it. The gun seemed to run fine otherwise, and most importantly, no casings were getting stuck in the chamber. After five mags and nearly 150 rounds, I was running out of time and would be late for another engagement, so I packed it up to continue testing later. Besides, the gun showed no signs of slowing down. I was satisfied.

I have seen other options recommended, such as changing uppers or barrels to get a chromed chamber, or using a chamber reamer. Both would probably work, but for the occasional use of steel cased ammo, both seem to be overkill. A 100 round box of cheap brass cased ammo should let you shoot 1000 rounds of steel case, if this method works for you. You might even be able to tweak the ratios and get away with 1 for 20 or 1 for 30.

If you have an AR that doesn't like steel ammo, but have a stockpile of it or have a source where you can get it for cheap, it's worth a try to mix some brass in with the steel and see if your AR will run it.

[X-spurt]

Maybe.... if the commie rounds were a dime a shot might reconsider, but they are not that low compared to brass US rounds. The fact of inconsistent loading will at minimum shoot off, how’s that good for practice? Unless someone just likes to hear the POP regardless of where it hits, in that case Black Cats are a better bargain.

Will stick with cheapest US FMJs for plinking, at least WW brass is reloadable.

[XXXoholic]

I forgot to mention, I look at the equipment as a investment I only pay once. It make me sick to have to pay for hazmat for primers and powder but i learned the key to real savings it to buy in bulk. I by powder at 48 pounds and 10,000 primers at at time and most places with waive hazmat fee. I also buy at gun shows or my LGS when they have sales. My latest component stock should hopefully last me through the summer.

[Nebr FAL owner]

Interesting article & thanks for the heads up/trick for mixing steel & brass to keep things running.

One question however is a metric sh**-ton more or less than a whole f*ck-ton ?

[Lurker]

I highly recommend you pick one up while they’re still available. I’ve put hundrerds of rounds of that Silver Bear JHP ammo through ours without a hiccup.

Ballistically that 9mm Mak round is roughly equivalent to a .38 spl. And with a magazine capacity of 12 rounds that’s a good amount of firepower in a nice compact package. And for $200.....well.

[FLAMING DEATH]

Well, if you buy in bulk, you’d notice the difference.

http://gun-deals.com/ammo.php?caliber=.223%2F5.56

The Wolf/Bear can be gotten for 219 for 1000, while the cheapest Aguila brass is 299 per 1000.

Shipping is slightly cheaper for the Aguila, but only by 4 dollars or so. So, you’d save around $80, which would be a fairly significant difference. When I bought the Herters stuff at Cabelas, I paid somewhere around $250/1000, but since I bought it at the Cabelas store, I paid no shipping.

You could take the extra money and buy 250-300 extra rounds, plus shipping. You’d get 10 mags worth of extra practice ammo for the same money.

For me, it would be slightly more expensive, as I would have to run a round or two of brass occasionally, but not much. I’d still save a significant amount.

Of course, those are the gun-deals.com prices. You might be able to find either one cheaper, or with a better shipping cost.

And, the “inconsistent” part is not as bad as you assume. Where my AR can make sub 2” groups at 100 yards with brass, that opens up to 3”-4” with steel (IOW, similar to the average AK). On a silhouette target, a watermelon, a steel plate, or even a tub of Tannerite, its’ really not that significant.

And, you’re right about reloading. If I reloaded, I might be thinking differently.

But, as it is, I’ll stick with the steel cased.

[Joe Brower]

Sunday fun thread. AR-15 chamberings remind me of the old saw about "the beauty of standards is that we have so many to choose from". Here's my two cents' worth:

(1) If I understand history of the 5.56x45mm's development, since Vietnam there are no less than three SAAMI chambering specs for this round. Generally, I think things started looser and tightened up over the years.

(2) You also have the chambering for the Rem. .223, which also varies slightly.

(3) In the last several years, a .223 Wylde chambering has also become available, which supposedly bridges the two.

The laquering on steel cases and buildup from it has also been a source of problems for some rifles over the years. Some have no problem, usually those with chrome-lined barrels. I do know that in HK G3 and similar models, the fluted chambering would get gummed up quickly from this, but that was .308.

I have seen effects from these variables in my own experience; for example, a Colt SP1 made in 1978 that will chamber anything you feed it, including brass that has not been full-length resized. OTOH, a CAR-15 with a Wilson barrel made in the mid-90s would instantly fail to fully chamer such ammo, and getting it unstuck was lots of fun.

Invididual mileage can and will vary greatly.

[MHGinTN]

I shoot Brown Bear all the time. I clean my piston guns about every thousand rounds or so.

[FLAMING DEATH]

Hmm. Do you know if yours has a chrome chamber?

Mine has less to do with the DI vs. piston issue than it does with the fact that I have a regular unchromed chamber. The chrome reduces the friction and allows the case to slide more easily out of the chamber.

My DI AR never had a problem, even when relatively dirty. I was scared of it at first, but when shooting brass it seemed to run reliably indefinitely.

I considered switching to a piston system with an anti-tilt buffer, but as the round count grew and I didn’t have any problems, I figured it wasn’t necessary on my gun.

In fact, even in DI configuration, even when dirty from running Tula, the bolt comes back with such authority that it yanked the rim off of the stuck steel case once, before I figured out the “mix the brass and the steel” trick.

Have you had any carrier tilt issues with yours? That seems to be the only drawback that I have heard of with piston conversions...

[AAABEST]

Wolf? Never touch the stuff.

Saving the few cents per round is not worth it.

[FLAMING DEATH]

Dunno. Never was good at converting to Imperial units.

[MHGinTN]

I’m running a non-chrome lined with a Opsrey Defense 416 piston kit, 14.5 barrel (with pinned&welded flash suppressor to 16.33 inches). The fact that the chamber stays cool enough to grasp even after a couple hundred straight through it may have a lot to do with the ‘fouling chamber’ effect not showing up. DI guns dump a lot of carbon into the bolt which finds its way onto the walls of the firing chamber as the gun heats up. I run three different guns, one a 10.5 inch pistol version, all have a different piston system on them (CMMG on the shorty, Osprey on the 14.5, and Adams Arms on a 16 inch carbon fiber with chrome lined bore). I almost feel guilty for not cleaning them every time I shuffle out to the range for a few hundred rounds. ... But you get used to it, trust me.

[Travis McGee]

I would try to fire off a few hundred “Brown Bears” in a lubed gun, rapid fire. Just to know if it is an option for your blaster.

[FLAMING DEATH]

I found this long term test of steel-cased .45 in Glock pistols:

http://gunnuts.net/category/steel-cased-ammo-test/

I haven’t read all the way thorough, but the tester seems generally pleased with the results. You have to start at the bottom of the article for the earliest posts.

I’d like to see something like this done for rifles.

[FLAMING DEATH]

That’s awesome. Seems like the piston might be making a difference in how much “stuff” ends up in the chamber, especially when firing steel cased ammo.

Good to know.

[mylife]

I have never had trouble with Wolf for the most part.
Tula sucks! It’s nonstop trouble.

[Lurker]

A metric sh** ton is equal to 1.16 f*** tons, unless you’re in Austrailia. That’s not to be confused with a sh** load, which is exactly 4 US a** loads.

Got it?

[Squantos]

Reloading is a great hobby. Corbin press for makin yer own .224 projectiles an carefully inspected brass will provide all the plinking ammo you will need.

Black Hills Mk 262 for all other serious social engagements.

Just what I choose to do.

[MHGinTN]

Have just recently gotten into reloading 12 and 20 gauge shotty stuff. I’m working on a 2 inch load that will work for home defense from semi autos, allowing an extra round in the mag tubes. I think I may have found it, but the range tests this evening will tell the tale. I wish Mossberg/Maverick would make a tad longer lip piece for the lift gate, so the shorter shells could be used in those great inexpensive pumps.

[BooBoo1000]

Thank you for your post, it has always been a problem for me steel cases. No wonder they sell them so cheap. Now for the important question, if you were in the market for a new AR 15: which one would you buy>>>????Thanks for your reply.

[Lurker]

I picked up a pile of moly coated 77 grain Sierra loads a whole back. They feed just fine but I’ve got the 1 in 9 twist in my rifle. Will that stabilize that bullet alright do you know?

Outdoor ranges are at a premium around here, so any insight will be appreciated.