Jerome R. Corsi : '2nd face' on Shroud points to supernatural origin

Catholic Online ^ | April 28 2010 | Jerome R. Corsi

[Judith Anne]

Thank you, thank you!

[goat granny]

Hi again, I took up my bible, which I don't read too often cause I need a magnifying glass, and the 4 gospels of the resurrection vary slightly...

I took it to mean that he must ascend to the Father first. One of the gospels say he was there and Mary saw him, the others are similar but an angel told them he has risen as promised...but my interpretation could be in error...It wasn't until Pentecost that the followers received the Holy Spirit...I again assumed after presenting himself to the Father he received all power that he had put aside to become man... again that is just my personal interpretation and could surely be mistaken...but to go to the Father first would not have been a long journey, just a matter of minutes for him to do so...(does that sound confusing to you) help me out here.....)

[aruanan]

The evidence has already been shown.....He wasn’t there....He showed Himself to Mary, his followers, and hundreds of others before He left...and they saw Him leave.

It goes back to what I said before....some will not believe the written record nor care to look. But they will believe because a piece of cloth that might have been used to bury Him in?????? Do you see my point?



There is inherently no difference between believing the verbal witness of someone who experienced the physical evidence of the resurrected Jesus and believing the implications of another piece of physical evidence of the resurrected Jesus. It's not surprising that the shroud, if genuine, should present as big a conundrum for someone as the claim by another that he has seen the risen Jesus--after all, the other disciples who heard the women's report claimed that they were idle tales and refused to believe them--or by the appearance of Jesus himself--after all, the first response to seeing him was the belief that he was a ghost. It was then that Jesus said, "Touch me. Does a ghost have flesh and bones as you see me have? Come, handle me and see that it is I myself. Oh, hey, you got anything to eat?"

He gave them all a tactile experience that he had indeed rising from the grave. Some of them may have been more stubborn like Thomas. Jesus said to Thomas, "You saw and believed, but blessed are those who never saw and still believed."

The problem with Thomas was not that he wanted to see things for himself but that he, in essence, called everyone else a liar for claiming something that he himself had not yet experienced and set himself up as the arbiter of the reality that others had already experienced. There's a big difference between saying, "I will believe what you said until I can see for myself" and "I will not believe what you said until I can see for myself." It's the first state that Jesus was calling blessed.

It doesn't follow that seeing and then believing is antithetical to genuine believing. Jesus didn't begrudge his followers the tactile versus the verbal confirmation of his resurrection. Neither should anyone else.

[aruanan]

This is probably one of those many things that don't have an easy answer and underscores how similar it is to the rest of life with all its unexplained weirdness and, thus, gives this account a feeling of reality versus a work of fiction where everything seems to work out just right. I don't think any of Jesus's power as the Son of God was ever out of his reach--all the miracles in some way reflect the powers shown by God in the creation and maintenance of the world (C.S. Lewis observed this probably in Miracles), but Jesus desisted in using that power to save himself. As he told Peter after the incident with the sword and the servant of Caiphas, he could even then have asked and his Father would have sent him more than twelve legions of angels to come to his rescue. But that power was fully on display in his raising himself from the dead.

[itsahoot]

Ever notice how these threads attract the Atheist, just like the PC bigots swarm the Mac threads?

[itsahoot]

Why would anybody want to reproduce such a poor and degraded image?

To prove they could. What greater proof could they provide that the Shroud is a fake? The fact that they haven't speaks volumes.

[itsahoot]

Well, Jesus had not yet ascended when he invited Thomas to examine his hands

I think you may be wrong on that one, I am sure better scholars will properly address that.

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

that is because it is Jesus we see in the Shroud!

Thanks for the info.

quix I tried to leave FR this morning but it hasn’t “taken” yet...LOL - so this was neat to read.

Jesus is quite alive and well - and very near!

Shalom!

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Why would anybody want to reproduce such a poor and degraded image?

To prove that it's not a forgery. Where have you been? There exists no comparable ancient artifact.

[SuziQ]

My faith doesn't hinge on whether or not the Shroud is proven to be of first century AD origin, but it would sure be interesting to get that info. Might even help to bolster some whose faith might be weak.

No, we'll likely never know for sure, in this world at least, if it's the burial shroud of Our Lord, but maybe the scientists won't be able to prove it's NOT.

[Moonman62]

Here's the Shroud in its natural state:

Now here's an image of Harry Potter on a fleece blanket.

Now why can't the Universe's greatest artist do something just as good?

[aruanan]

Well, Jesus had not yet ascended when he invited Thomas to examine his hands

I think you may be wrong on that one, I am sure better scholars will properly address that.

Well, perhaps you mean "more imaginative" scholars who take a few words and whip up from them entire books of conjecture. Aside from Paul's discussion in Ephesians of the ascension of Jesus following his descent to the "lower, earthly regions," the mention of the ascension of Jesus in the historical narrative is in Luke 24 and Acts 1. The action in both of these, the ascension of Jesus into the sky, takes place about 5 weeks later than the encounters immediately after the resurrection in which he invites the assembly, and later Thomas, to handle his body.

[goat granny]

That is an interesting take and I will have to digest it...but as you said Jesus had to ask the father for the angels, after his ascension, his power than resided in him and the father equally, and he did not have to ask the father...He also said all miracles done were done through the Father. (I think):O( he did many miracles for others, but always gave the Father credit for such miracles...

I will have to go over your post and thank you for your answer.....

but Jesus desisted in using that power to save himself****

I think he did use his power to protect himself when a crowd was trying to descend on him to kill him, he just walked through the crowd untouched...it was not yet his time and he knew it...

Sometimes my brain just goes boink when I try to figure things out....but its always good to hear others opinions on such things when it is done without getting a sarcastic remark from someone and get an actual opinion on how another one see's things...such answers can help see in a new direction. If this doesn't sound too confusing.

Thanks again for your response....

[Quix]

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

[aruanan]

That is an interesting take and I will have to digest it...but as you said Jesus had to ask the father for the angels, after his ascension, his power than resided in him and the father equally, and he did not have to ask the father...He also said all miracles done were done through the Father. (I think):O( he did many miracles for others, but always gave the Father credit for such miracles

Seeing that Jesus is from eternity in the relationship of a son to his father, it's not surprising that he would ask things of his father or be obedient to his father or quick to give his father the glory. These characteristics would be eternal characteristics. Notice how this takes place: all authority is conquered by Jesus after which he turns it all over to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24).

[Melian]

I wasn’t writing about the Shroud linens. I was writing about all the signs/miracles Christ performed in His public life. I’m sure when people went home to describe what they’d seen, those who hadn’t seen it said they same thing you did.

As far as the linens go: That certainly wasn’t the witnesses’ focus. I’m sure the linens were gathered up later by women who went to see the empty tomb. It makes sense to me that they would gather up anything that had touched His body, given the miracle of His resurrection. It’s normal to hang on to the last things touched by someone you love who’s died. People do it all the time.

Imagine now that the loved one had continually spoken of the significance of his body and blood and sacrifice and you see linens saturated with his blood— the blood of this sacrifice he’d been so adamant about. Would you care what happened to them?

Say someone sent you an article of clothing worn by your soldier son when he died that still had his blood stains on it— would it be precious to you? Of course. Now, if it actually bore an image of him on it, made of bloodstains, would you treasure it? Would you find that miraculous? Comforting?

This is the Shroud: a tangible witness to the crucifixion and Resurrection; a comfort for those who need that type of comfort, scientific proof for those who need proof, and a stumbling block for many.

[csense]

Thanks for the ping, Swordmaker.

[Melian]

“I have no problem with the discovery of ancient relics which give us insight into prior cultures etc. What I do have issue with is when these are used to distract or pull away those from seeking Christ...to something else...you already have the Alien issue being brought up. And we are going to see more and more of the “supernatural” elements being hinged into Christianity...and that not of the good kind.”

Huh? How can believing the Shroud is the burial cloth of Christ pull someone away from believing in Christ? How can believing that Christ did yet another miracle at the moment of his Resurrection cause someone not to believe in Him?

Do you believe Christ used mud and spit to heal a blind man? Do you believe a woman was cured by touching the hem of His garment? Do you believe that He used trees and pigs to do miracles? Do you think that was alien or supernatural? Christ used THINGS, sometimes strange things, to teach us and illustrate His point. Why not a burial linen?

He knew us. He knew it would comfort us.

[caww]

"There is inherently no difference between believing the verbal witness of someone who experienced the physical evidence of the resurrected Jesus and believing the implications of another piece of physical evidence of the resurrected Jesus"

I disagree.......becausse the written record is the source of that verbal witness.... and as Christians we know who the author of that record is...I believe that record..and that God is the author of His written word...and that has stood the test of time and tide.

That is very different than those of our day attempting to find proof from a bit of fabric based on man's standards of who is the authority that establishes if it is authentic or not. And those opinions will differ and change. There are already pasts testings etc. done that have said the shroud was not that used for Christ.

But because some want to "believe" the possibility they will search until they can establish that belief one way or another...in doing so they have taken the science of the research to a level outside of the science which has already made the determination. And the battles rage over which research is correct or not.

[Shelayne]

He is saying that the event horizon from the Shroud image sent information instantaneously throughout the universe! Does this mean that the Resurrection was a universal event? I think so! On a par with creation.

I have never thought of that, but it makes perfect sense. His triumphal return will also be a universal event to be seen by everyone. Wow! I am constantly amazed by Him. Praise and glory and honor to the King of kings!