How Christian Were the Founders?

NYTimes ^ | February 12, 2010 | Russell Short

[Steelfish]

How Christian Were the Founders?

By RUSSELL SHORTO February 11, 2010

LAST MONTH, A WEEK before the Senate seat of the liberal icon Edward M. Kennedy fell into Republican hands, his legacy suffered another blow that was perhaps just as damaging, if less noticed. It happened during what has become an annual spectacle in the culture wars.

Over two days, more than a hundred people — Christians, Jews, housewives, naval officers, professors; people outfitted in everything from business suits to military fatigues to turbans to baseball caps — streamed through the halls of the William B. Travis Building in Austin, Tex., waiting for a chance to stand before the semicircle of 15 high-backed chairs whose occupants made up the Texas State Board of Education. Each petitioner had three minutes to say his or her piece.

“Please keep César Chávez” was the message of an elderly Hispanic man with a floppy gray mustache.

“Sikhism is the fifth-largest religion in the world and should be included in the curriculum,” a woman declared.

[LomanBill]

“The clergy ... believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.”

Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800.

[LomanBill]

"Our minds were circumscribed within narrow limits by an habitual belief that it was our duty to be subordinate to the mother country in all matters of government, to direct all our labors in subservience to her interests, and even to observe a bigoted intolerance for all religions but hers."

 

Source: Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography.

[LomanBill]

"Religion is well supported; of various kinds, indeed, but all good enough; all sufficient to preserve peace and order: or if a sect arises, whose tenets would subvert morals, good sense has fair play, and reasons and laughs it out of doors, without suffering the state to be troubled with it. They do not hang more malefactors than we do. They (i.e. Pennsylvania and New York) are not more disturbed with religious dissensions. On the contrary, their harmony is unparalleled, and can be ascribed to nothing but their unbounded tolerance, because there is no other circumstance in which they differ from every nation on earth. They have made the happy discovery, that the way to silence religious disputes, is to take no notice of them. Let us too give this experiment fair play, and get rid, while we may, of those tyrannical laws."

Source: Thomas Jefferson, "Religion" in Notes on the State of Virginia (1782), p. 287.

[LomanBill]

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Nah, it’ll be more fun if you come play over here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2450141/posts?page=27

Bring your hanky :-)

[Steelfish]

Blackstone, who compiled the English Common Law would differ. Adultery was a crime under common law and for many years a crime in many states in the US. Check the 1892 US Supreme Court decision that refers to the US a “Christian nation”.

[LomanBill]

>>Blackstone, who compiled the English Common Law

But this ain’t England. Some folks seem to have forgotten that.

Jefferson’s words speak for themselves; Jefferson was a founder.

[DocRock]

Library of Congress Religion and the Founding of the American Republic

[Steelfish]

This can be serious debate. The Common Law was not about Jefferson’s comments.

That this is a Christian nation and the common law is founded on firm Christian principles and much of its formed the basis of public law of many state statutes cannot be denied by serious scholars.

Here’s a small sampling:

THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. U.S.

143 U.S. 457, 12 S.Ct. 511, 36 L.Ed. 226

February 29, 1892

Here’s a quote from the case after extensive review of the issue.

“These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.”

Other examples:

The Mayflower Compact (1620), precursor to the Declaration of Independence and US Constitution, proclaimed that the first permanent English-speaking settlement in the Americas was intended for the “advancement of the Christian faith.”

In a message to his troops (1778), George Washington observed: “To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to laud the more distinguished character of Christian.”

The first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, John Jay, wrote in 1816 that it was in the interests of “our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”

As late as 1931, the Supreme Court observed in U.S. v. Macintosh, “We are a Christian people.”

Woodrow Wilson told a campaign rally in 1911, “America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture.”

In a 1947 letter, President Harry Truman (who was instrumental in the establishment of the state of Israel) assured Pope Pius XII, “This is a Christian nation.”

Even William O. Douglas, that most liberal justice of the liberal Warren Court, was forced to admit that Americans are “a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being.”

Here are some helpful URLs:
The Foundations of The English Common Law

http://liberty-virtue-independence.blogspot.com/2008/12/foundation-of-english-common-law.html

How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

http://books.google.com/books?id=zVDR2ZePzvUC&dq=Western+Civilization+Built+by+Catholic+Church+book&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=ZLx4S8CKCYqMtAPui-jLCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Western%20Civilization%20Built%20by%20Catholic%20Church%20book&f=false

[LomanBill]

>>This can be serious debate

Serious debate?  That is a game for legal Pharisees; a game played by men of poor and dishonorable character - who manipulate and distort the truth for the satisfaction of their own selfish appetite for power; and a game played by religious wolves in sheep's clothing who would turn the bride of Christ into a whore to effect their own influence upon temporal governance.

Question:

How Christian Were the Founders?

Answer:  by Thomas Jefferson, author of the American Declaration of Independence - an American  Founder:

“The clergy ... believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.”

Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814.

"I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD ETERNAL HOSTILITY TO EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN"
--Thomas Jefferson

 

Tyranny over the mind of men?

Strictly Commercial

Jeremiah 6:20

"What do I care about incense from Sheba
or sweet calamus from a distant land?
Your burnt offerings are not acceptable;
your sacrifices do not please me."

John 14:6-7

Jesus answered,
"I am the way and the truth and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through me."


Apparently, no visit to Babylon's Mystery Gift Shop is required.

BY GRACE AND FAITH ALONE!

Incense and idolatry - Is the syncretism included for the price of the candles and the Roman State's indulgence - or does that cost extra?

Isis, Ishtar, Oster, Easter...   =  Syncretism

Christ Frees Us... Christ - not the religious sycophants perched upon the State NewSpeak pyramid's steps; and perhaps that was self-evident to Jefferson, too?

 

"The right to search for truth implies also a duty; one must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true."
--Albert Einstein

 

[Steelfish]

These kinds of isolated and random statements betray a purpose in serious scholarship and inquiry especially as it relates to an established and organic body of evidence as communicated in prior posts. Invective, as is “internet-research” for disparate strands of remarks is a poor substitute to rebut historical facts and conduct.

[LomanBill]

>>serious scholarship

"McLeroy is a robust, cheerful and inexorable man, whose personality is perhaps typified by the framed letter T on the wall of his office, which he earned as a “yell leader” (Texas A&M nomenclature for cheerleader) in his undergraduate days in the late 1960s. “I consider myself a Christian fundamentalist,” he announced almost as soon as we sat down. He also identifies himself as a young-earth creationist who believes that the earth was created in six days, as the book of Genesis has it, less than 10,000 years ago. "

"serious scholarship"?    LOL.   Even the largest mound of bovine fecal material does nothing to alter the small stature of the little tyrants who try to stand upon it.

 

Regarding the question raised in the title of this thread "How Christian were the Founders" - Jefferson was a founder and his words are self-explanatory:

“The clergy ... believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.”

Source: Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800.

 

Where are the Christian monuments in Washington D.C.;  and what is that, 1 mile North of the White House - 2 miles north of the Jefferson Memorial?   

 

Hmmmmm.... evidently things were laid out with a purpose - for anyone with an eye and free mind to see.   A little harder to revise history when its written in stone...

[LomanBill]

Tell us, Mr. "serious scholar" what's the other name for this:

 

 

When navigating within a mosquito/parasite infested swamp, especially one like Washington D.C.,  a Compass is a useful thing to have; even more so useful if it happens to be a Moral one.

 

Got Morals and Dogma?

[Steelfish]

OMG! This only proves how hilarious a serious debate can be reduced to an absurdity when an obelisk built to commemorate the 100th anniversary of Washington’s birth is offered as counter-proof to the extensive and established body of historical scholarship that our nation was founded on “Christian” principles- not Hindu, not Buddhist, not Atheist, and the ONLY limitations were that there not be a government-preferred national religion and that no religious test be offered for government office.

Have you ever heard of the National Cathedral??????????????????????????????????

This is what happens when those without an in-depth education use the internet to pluck a quotation from her and there, throw in a random quote from Jefferson, and pretend to engage in serious debate in the apparently breathtaking ignorance that President, Jefferson attended Christian religious services in the halls of Congress to say nothing of the religious affiliations, writings, conduct, and declarations of the rest of the signers of the founding documents. What the US Supreme Court has called the “organic mass” of evidence that establishes that this nation is a “Christian” nation.

This is why it should come as no surprise why even to this day many have advocated that immigration to the US should be confined only to those beliefs comport to the great Christian religious heritage of this nation.

[LomanBill]

>>belisk built to commemorate the 100th
>>anniversary of Washington’s birth

On early maps depicting the Washington Monument it’s called the Masonic Compass.

I’ll leave it to your “serious scholarship” to see that for yourself.

>>Have you ever heard of the National Cathedral??

Ever been in it? I have.

Who knew syncretism could be an art-form? - at the National Cathedral, it is.

You’re as dillusional as the young earthers if you think that cathedral is “Christian”.

[LomanBill]

[Jefferson attended Christian religious services in the halls of Congress]

 

William Jefferson Clinton attended religious services in the National Cathedral too - but that doesn't make either one of them Christian.

 

Similarly, I've attended Wiccan services (a wedding) in the countryside... but that doesn't mean I practice their faith...

 

 

 

 

And speaking of the National Cathedral - it has no more to do with Christianity than children collecting Babylonian Ishtar Eggs on its lawn during spring solstice (Easter / Ishtar / Isis / Mary / Gaia)

 

 

Statuesque

Typical Idol worship; Typical of the Roman Empire's syncretist Un-Holy vestigial religious remains.

 

WoW!

Shock and Awe - moon rock in a stained glass window in the National Cathedral

 

 

What ya gonna do next your holiness - make the sun go dark during a total eclipse?  

 

 

 

 

 

Zap em wit the siren man; Zap em wit the siren - they love that;... but watch out, those @#$%# monkeys bite I tell ya!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steelfish]

Here is something of serious scholarship re Jefferson that were learned in college while taking a panoply of courses in American History and Constitutionalism. And, I mean in reputable colleges like Harvard and Yale. http://www.jstor.org/pss/2674241

If you wish to engage in serious scholarly debate it might help, if at the very least, you consult such materials before resorting to un-serious and sophomoric pictorial caricature that are unworthy of an intelligent riposte.

The National Cathedral is where the nation gathers together in times of celebration, grief, and mourning such as 9/11 or at the death of prominent Americans such as US Supreme Court Justices- like the services for the late President Gerald Ford. The services and liturgy are emphatically Christian. Not Hindu, not Buddhist, not Jewish.

[LomanBill]

>>The National Cathedral is where the nation gathers together

 

The National Cathedral is a Gaudi hodge podge of syncretism and idolatry - decorated with symbolism that's no more Christian than Babylonian Ishtar Eggs are.

 

Harvard and Yale?   L O L!!  Ain't one of those where Comrade Chairman Obamski did his "serious scholarship"; his serious "constitutional" scholarship?

 

Get out of the ivory tower much?

 

Wile E. Steelfish 

"Serious Scholar" Suuuuuper Genius

[LadyPilgrim]

"ANYBODY who can READ can understand the importance of Christianity in the founding of this nation."

That's what's wrong, most of them CAN'T read....or maybe they just DON'T read......it......

It's all over our American history, The Constitution......and even the engravings on the buildings in our nation's Capital......
They're blind. Black night blind.