Posted on 06/09/2009 8:47:35 AM PDT by Davy Buck
My oh my, what would the critics, the Civil War publications, publishers, and bloggers do if it weren't for the bad boys of the Confederacy and those who study them and also those who wish to honor their ancestors who fought for the Confederacy?
(Excerpt) Read more at oldvirginiablog.blogspot.com ...
"ad hominem" attack on Buchanan?? Do you know what the word "dough face" means? Do you know where it came from?
OK, Mr. Philosopher King who is, oh, so very sensitive to "ad hominem" attacks on friends of the South, but who denies the existential possibility of "ad hominem" attacks on "damnyankees" (obviously since the truth cannot be "ad hominem," right?), here's the story on "doughface" northerners.
Back in 1820, Virginia Congressman John Randolf was debating the Missouri Compromise on slavery, and needed the help of northerners sympathetic to the South to get the bill passed. But Randolf despised those people for their lack of commitment to their own cause, and coined the term "doughface" (or possibly "doe faced") to describe them. The term stuck.
So President Buchanan was a "dough faced northerner," and that's a fact. And since the term was invented by a southerner, it cannot, by PeaRidge philosophical definition, be an unacceptable "ad hominem" attack -- since no derogatory term for northerners invented by southerners can be derogatory, only fact, right?
PR:"Southerners were saying exactly the same thing....and you know that. You also know that repeated attempts were made to solve the situation peacefully.""
BJK:"Can you quote Southern leaders advocating secession but claiming there was no reason to expect war, and the South would do everything possible to avoid war?”
PR:"Of course I can. How many quotes would suit you?"
My understanding is the South was eager for war, and unwilling to compromise ANYTHING to avoid it. But perhaps you can demonstrate otherwise? What was the South willing to compromise? I'd like to see those quotes.
And just what would you know about courage, brains, or balls?
Total nonsense. I posted the relevant parts completely and in context. There was no offer to negotiate the principle issue - the illegal Southern secession. Only a demand to accept it as fact. And if you look at the history of the Southern legislation on this issue, and the way it got watered down over time, then there was no interest on the part of Davis's government to pay for anything that they had already stolen or were demanding.
Fort Sumter was not theirs to render unnecessary. And first trying to starve the garrison out and then bombarding it into surrender is an act of war by any definition of the term. So yes, it was Davis who started the war and Davis who lost it.
Alexander H. Stephens: “it is not he who strikes the first blow, or fires the first gun that inaugurates or begins the conflict." Rather, the true aggressor is "the first who renders force necessary."
Was it necessary? Robert Toombs: "Firing on that fort will inagurate a civil war greater than any the world has yet seen...At this time it is suicide, murder, and will lose us every friend in the North...You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest which extends from mountains to ocean, and legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary; it put us in the wrong; it is fatal."
They did. Anderson had made his shortage clear on several occasions to Southern representatives.
Anderson said he would defend himself against acts of aggression.
“The power confided in me will be used to hold, occupy and possess the property and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and impost but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion—no using force against or among the people anywhere”.
"Political leaders in the Confederacy recognized that Lincoln was pledging to hold Ft. Sumter, and use the military to do so. This President was prepared to use coercive military action on states that left the Union.
"And you know it is a fact that “six weeks later sent a secret naval mission to invade Charleston harbor”"
You have to remember the sequence of events here.
First, on January 9, President Doughface Buchanan, who you quote so lovingly as saying the Union had no right to make war to preserve itself, sends a hired merchant ship, Star of the West to resupply Federal troops at Fort Sumter.
The South fired on this ship -- January 9, the true first shots of the war -- and ran it off.
By April 4, Lincoln is told the Federal forces in Fort Sumter have enough food to last til April 15. He ordered a resupply expedition of merchant vessels, this time escorted by the US Navy.
On April 6, 1861, Lincoln notified South Carolina Governor Francis W. Pickens that
"an attempt will be made to supply Fort Sumter with provisions only, and that if such attempt be not resisted, no effort to throw in men, arms, or ammunition will be made without further notice, [except] in case of an attack on the fort."
In response, the Confederate cabinet, meeting in Montgomery, decided on April 9 to open fire on Fort Sumter in an attempt to force its surrender before the relief fleet arrived.
Only Secretary of State Robert Toombs opposed this decision: he reportedly told Jefferson Davis the attack
"will lose us every friend at the North. You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest. ... Legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary. It puts us in the wrong. It is fatal."
The Confederate Secretary of War telegraphed Beauregard that if he were certain that the fort was to be supplied by force,
"You will at once demand its evacuation, and if this is refused proceed, in such a manner as you may determine, to reduce it."
Beauregard dispatched aides to Fort Sumter on April 11 and issued their ultimatum. Anderson refused, though he reportedly commented,
"Men, if you do not batter the fort to pieces about us, we shall be starved out in a few days."
Seems to me the South was eager for war, and not willing to do anything to avoid it.
"Tariffs are applied and revenue collected where the goods are landed.
Here you go off again on another red herring. Lincoln said: “The power confided in me will be used to hold, occupy and possess the property and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and impost...
He said he was and he meant it.
You can post on all you like.
You know that there was no formal letter....no address from the White House....no Lincoln signature....nothing to validate Chew except his and Talbot’s word.
Very well put......and they will do it over and over again.
I have seen others attribute that gender to Non.
And I am beginning to agree.
Since Non steeps continuous actual non-sequiturs on this forum, it would be consistent that a woman present herself as a man.
No, but I would say to your post that the last refuge of a scoundrel is a false analogy.
If you think that the South did not want peace, then research the Peace Commissioners.
If you think the South was unwilling to compromise, then research their offer to open the Mississippi to Union shipping.
Other than that, I don't see the need to communicate with you.
It is not you in this year to determine the principle issue, and then heap criticism on the peace effort.
Something extraordinarily important that you need to understand: the South is long dead, the North is long dead, there is no East and no West in America. The US is not two countries any more.
The United States is THREE countries, and has been for a long time. Let me describe them for you:
USA #1, the Free Republic: rural and small town America, accounts for over 80% of the land and about 1/3 of the population. This country is overwhelmingly conservative, Christian and usually votes Republican. You see it clearly on the red-state blue-state county maps of the 2004 election. It includes the northern-most counties of Maine and Alaska, the southern-most counties of Florida, western counties of Massachusetts and eastern counties of California. It is the heartland of America.
USA #2, the People's Republic: big city America, accounts for no more than 5% of the land but over 1/3 the population. This America is totally dependent on Big Government to meet all its needs, and from their point of view the US cannot become socialistic enough soon enough.
USA #3, France: suburban, mid-sized city America, accounts for the remainder. These people live near and often work in the Big Cities, but retain enough conservative independence of mind to at least comprehend what America used to be all about. Sometimes (not always) they will even listen to reason. When they do, presidents like Ronald Reagan and even the Bushes can win by large majorities.
The problem is, obviously, there is just no way to "divorce" one of these Americas from any of the others -- not now, not ever, ain't goin to happen. So fugeddaboutit.
What post about the last refuge of a scoundrel?
I never used those terms on this thread.
I don't agree with your breakdown of America- there's a little bit too much broadbrushing there. But I do agree with your statement above. This nation is too linked to seriously think about carving off certain parts. Even the most liberal and conservative states have political minorities from the other side of the spectrum that comprise 40% of their population. In 2008 , in one of the worst years for Republicans in recent history, John McCain got 38% of the vote in California.
The idea that the country could ever be carved up into liberal and conservative bastions ignores reality.
it has been my experience that those who WANT to know go look for themselves & those who DO NOT want to know, ask someone else to convince them of something that they don't wish to believe. (that's why i quit doing "homework" on FR for "doubting thomases". = it's called: WILFUL IGNORANCE of UNcomfortable facts.)
free dixie,sw
free dixie,sw
free dixie,sw
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