Mexico monolith may cast new light on Mesoamerica

Yahoo ^ | Monday, May 8, 2006 | Reuters

[SunkenCiv]

Findings at the newly excavated Tamtoc archeological site in the north-central state of San Luis Potosi may prompt scholars to rethink a view of Mesoamerican history which holds that its earliest peoples were based in the south of Mexico... Tamtoc, located about 550 miles northeast of Mexico City, will open to the public this week, while experts including linguists, historians, ethnographers and others study findings from the site to confirm their origins. The Olmecs are considered the mother culture of pre-Hispanic Mexico. Ruins of Olmec centers believed to have flourished as early as 1200 B.C. have been found in the Gulf Coast states of Veracruz and Tabasco, with only scattered artifacts found elsewhere. Workers restoring a canal at the site stumbled on the stone monolith. It appears to represent a lunar calendar and contains three human figures and other symbols in relief. At 25 feet long, 13 feet high, 16 inches thick and weighing more than 30 tons, it may date to as early as 900 B.C., Ahuja said... The 330-acre complex has three plazas and more than 70 buildings and may indicate that the Olmecs migrated northward and mingled with other peoples there, he said.

[SunkenCiv]

[SunkenCiv]

[SunkenCiv]

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[SunkenCiv]

Last I knew (in case someone wonders), Warren Anderson's "Chac" program was Mac-only, and in fact was classic OS only. :')

[S0122017]

Nice stele.

Which reminds me, actually, if there was an Atlantis and if the south americans are survivors from Atlantis, they would write in the same language as all the other designated survivors from Atlantis. Like the egyptians and sumerians. But despite some spoken words that are similar between these three cultures there are no similarities in writing.

Unless.. only the Atlantean elite knew how to write and the common people did not, and the survivors where common people.

Which means that Atlantis did not have as good an educational program as many people claim, as most people in Atlantis apparently didn't knew how to read or write, just like arabs!

Which means.. I busted another Atlantis myth.
I can now sleep happy tonight :)

[colorcountry]

Does it look like reformed Egyptian? Were the Olmecs really the Jaredites of the Book of Mormon?

Now you can stay awake at night pondering the possibilities.

[S0122017]

Haha no i think i can still sleep happy.

1) The Olmec hieroglyphs really don't look, or read, like Egyptian hieroglyphs.

2) http://en.wkipedia.org/wiki/Olmec
Quote

"Some members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) have suggested that the Olmecs may be the Jaredites recorded in the Book of Mormon because of alleged similarities in the Olmec archaeological record. However, the book mentions things that are known not to have been part of the Olmec culture, such as iron, silk and elephants. This speculation is not supported by any aspect of conventional Mesoamerican scholarship.

Some writers have also claimed that the Olmec were related to the Mandé peoples of West Africa even though there is absolutely no DNA evidence for this. Such writers have also claimed that Olmec symbols are a script that encodes a Mande language, even though there is no known Mande script until 1949. [7] [8][9] The script claimed to be related to Olmec is actually a set of North African petroglyphs which have not yet even been identified as writing at all, nor definitively connected to any African language let alone to the distant and as yet unknown Olmec language and writing. Mainstream scholars remain unconvinced by these speculations, most regarding them as crackpot. Others are more critical and regard the promotion of such unfounded theories as a form of ethnocentric racism at the expense of indigenous Americans.

By an overwhelming margin the consensus view remains that the Olmec and their achievements are wholly indigenous to the region, founded entirely on a remarkable and ancient agriculture that was indigenous, and that they and neighbouring cultures, with whom they had contact, developed their own characters quite independently of any extra-hemispheric influences."

I'd like to add that the timing is wrong.
Jaredites: After the tower of Babel thing.
Olmecs: 1200 - 400 BC

The Sumerians talked about that tower, and they started 4000 BC.

[SunkenCiv]

if there was an Atlantis and if the south americans are survivors from Atlantis, they would write in the same language as all the other designated survivors from Atlantis. Like the egyptians and sumerians. But despite some spoken words that are similar between these three cultures there are no similarities in writing. Unless.. only the Atlantean elite knew how to write and the common people did not, and the survivors where common people.

Actually, that isn't a reasonable conclusion to draw, it's just a series of straw men. But it's clear you were just having fun.

Since Plato -- the fountainhead of the story -- places Atlantis a very long time ago, there has been plenty of time for languages to diverge, for other immigrants to enter and settle the Americas, and writing systems to be superseded (as they were in the space of a century or two in the eastern Mediterranean, when cuneiform was abandoned).

And since it was a disaster that claimed the Atlantis of Plato's story, it's a good bet that the entire body of literature went with them (depending on the credence one lends to Edgar Cayce, of course), along with most of the population. Furthermore, while Plato does imply the existence of the Americas in his description of Atlantis, he doesn't mention anything about escaped Atlanteans settling anywhere.

[Betis70]

Hypercard program I think, wasn't it?

[Betis70]

Nevermind, just googled it up. I was thinking of a different program.

Looks like it was a C program. I would think modifying it for Carbon would not be a big deal. Heck might be kinda fun for someone like me (archaeologist turned programmer).

:)

[S0122017]

Actually, that isn't a reasonable conclusion to draw, it's just a series of straw men. But it's clear you were just having fun.

Only partially.

Since Plato -- the fountainhead of the story -- places Atlantis a very long time ago, there has been plenty of time for languages to diverge, for other immigrants to enter and settle the Americas, and writing systems to be superseded (as they were in the space of a century or two in the eastern Mediterranean, when cuneiform was abandoned).

10 000 years may seem like a long time. But seeing as how the oldest example of classic Egyptian hieroglyphs is already 5 300 years old, 10 000 isnt much time. And older forms are dated to even further back. Also, pictograms found in the Negev desert are clear predessors of both Hebrew and Egyptian hierogrlyphs.

If the sumerians and egyptians are both descendants from one culture, than that language would have changed completely in mere 4000 years, leaving no examples of intermediate stages.

Unless that pictogram language of the Negev desert was the language of Atlantis ofcourse. In fact, i believe some people have suggested it may have been the first language.

[blam]

"Ruins of Olmec centers believed to have flourished as early as 1200 B.C. have been found in the Gulf Coast states of Veracruz and Tabasco, with only scattered artifacts found elsewhere. Workers restoring a canal at the site stumbled on the stone monolith."

I read that this date will probably be pushed back to 1400BC.

[blam]

"Like the egyptians and sumerians. But despite some spoken words that are similar between these three cultures there are no similarities in writing."

(Ahem)

The Olmec And The Shang

"The continent of Asia at the western edge of the Pacific Ocean and the Americas at the ocean's eastern edge lie 15,000 kilometers apart. Today, a US-resident Chinese scholar believes he has found evidence in ancient writing that 3000 years ago, a lost people of the Shang Dynasty went to Columbus's "New" World. . . ."

[Ptarmigan]

I have read that Olmec could be from China. Many of their artwork and writing looks Chinese. I would not be surprised if Shang Dynasty had Black emperors. If I recall, I read there were Blacks living in China. I have seen those Olmec head statues before and they look like Blacks.

[blam]

"I have seen those Olmec head statues before and they look like Blacks."

Australian Aborigines

'First Americans Were Australian'

[SunkenCiv]

Unless that pictogram language of the Negev desert was the language of Atlantis ofcourse. In fact, i believe some people have suggested it may have been the first language.

This is an example of a straw man argument.

[Ptarmigan]

Makes a lot of sense. Supposedly the first Americans came via the South Pacific.

[Ptarmigan]

Ainus and Australian Aborgines have a lot in common. I suspect both came from Sundaland.

[colorcountry]

Forgive me, I was being facetious.

Good post, with a lot of good information, thanks.

[gleeaikin]

When at the Epcot center in Orlando (Disney) I saw a Mexican cup that had figures that look exactly like Chinese art I had studied about in college.

I think it is entirely likely that a significant influence came from the Orient. The Aztecs, johnny-come-latelies from the north as far as southwestern USA, claimed ancestors from a great lagoon to the west (I think they called this Atlan or Atzlan). If the Chinese landed there it could have been the great mythic source of culture.

I also think some influence came from the Mediterranean/North Africa. The 12th Century BC was a time of great upheaval in the Med. The Mycenean civilization of the Greeks collapsed. A somewhat mysterious group known as the Sea People gained sea power and conquered various regions around the Med. I think they were Phoenecians, or eventually acquired that name. At that period Negro mercenaries were used aboard ships as fighting men. Also this was a period of time when huge statues of rulers were being carved along the Nile.

My conjecture is that one or more ships of the Sea People, with Negro mercenaries aboard traveled to the Olmec coast. Perhaps they had to escape trouble at home. Perhaps they were stranded. I imagine one or more of the powerful Black mercenaries taking up the reins of power. They would have been illiterate in all likelihood. They might have wanted great statues like the ones in Egypt to record them for posterity. They might have settled for giant heads as the most important part of the representation. That's my theory.