Posted on 04/24/2006 2:16:50 PM PDT by Perdogg
DURHAM, N.C. - The attorney for one of two Duke lacrosse players charged with raping a stripper demanded on Monday that prosecutors turn over the accuser’s medical, legal and education records for use in attacking her credibility.
Kirk Osborn, who represents player Reade Seligmann, said the material will provide “rich sources of information for impeaching the complaining witnesses.”
Osborn also asked a judge to hold a pretrial hearing to “determine if the complaining witness is even credible enough to provide reliable testimony.”
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
Detective Rod Wheeler said on Fox that his inside sources at the PD have confirmed that witnesses who were with Mangum prior to the lacrosse party have verified that she was intoxicated.
The neighbor publicly making the remarks that I cited is a much more substantial report, which is not to say that it is the last word or that the guy on FOX might not have it right.
It explains a lot if it's the truth. Thanks!
I don't discredit what he says he saw, but short of whether she was stumbling drunk, the opinion of any observer from his vantage point isn't meaningful as to whether she was intoxicated.
Someone can be well over the limit for DUI, for example, and still walk in what appears to be a normal fashion.
Take a standard field sobriety test - a police officer typically will not ask an individual to merely walk from point A to point B, but rather will ask that the person do something less natural - such as walk heel-to-toe, or lean back with their eyes closed and touch their nose.
In fact, if you look at those pictures at 12:30 of the AV standing on the back porch, she is by no means "holding up the house." In fact, those pictures cut against the date-rape drug theory, because she is clearly able to stand up, balancing on only one heel, and at the same time fiddle with things in her purse. One would have to take the position that such a drug hit her all of a sudden, just at the next moment in time, right as she was standing on the porch or walking down the steps.
Perhaps she was mildly intoxicated when she arrived, but not stumbling drunk. Kim says she then basically chugged one and a half mixed drinks. If those are college kid drinks, that's probably half cheap rum half coke with a little bit of ice in a beer cup, or the equivalent of 5 or more regular drinks. If she hadn't eaten in a while, that alcohol could quickly hit her (combined with whatever she was drinking earlier) to where she loses her balance a time or two during her routine and loses her shoe.
Then later, when she walks back around to try to get her shoe back, she is intoxicated enough that when she tries to step off the porch on her one shoe, distracted by her bags and cellphone, and steps on that pile of rags on the second step, she ends up taking a nasty fall, hitting her head and sustaining cuts and bruises.
With a mild concussion and the effects of that alcohol kicking in, it could be an hour before she starts really coming out of it.
I'm not sure if the neighbor could be trusted. Very early on it was said that because of the loud parties next door, he had called the police on the LAX guys many times. I'm assuming that he might be responsible for some of the underage drinking and public urination charges brought against the guys.
-----The neighbor publicly making the remarks that I cited is a much more substantial report, which is not to say that it is the last word or that the guy on FOX might not have it right.-----
Perhaps.
The neighbor strikes me as a bit of a publicity whore...I could be wrong...he seems to see this as an opportunity of grandeur, to "be somebody"...even some of his statements are inconsistent with everyone else's. He also seems like he has an axe to grind with the lacrosse players.
My gut feeling is...he will ultimately be inconsequential as a witness.
I forgot to mention...
Did anyone notice that Kim made numerous mindless statements of the obvious such as "Facts are facts, and they're not gonna change"...stuff like that?
In my experience...dialog such as this...is usually that of an unintelligent person attempting to sound profound...but ultimately saying nothing.
She really struck me as a buffoon.
Except on one point: He has said that he heard the AV say "I've got to go back and get my shoe."
His testimony as to when he heard that will be absolutely crucial for the defense.
Not a way in the world will anyone believe that that woman was beaten, strangled, raped and sodomized and AFTER that went back in to where her attackers were to get her shoe back.
So that single statement overheard by Bissey establishes that the rape could not possibly have occurred before that point in time, whenever that point was.
I sure do! Can someone actually access those kinds of records?
Exactly... or maybe even the second most material lie possibly told by the boys... that she and the AV were in the BR together... If she flat out says they were never in there together then we may have about a 20 minutes gap for someone else to be in the BR with the AV... But then she would have had to be standing directly outside the BR door the whole time to know the boys didn't shove a $100 bill under the door...
I'm afraid she's painted herself into a box by claiming it was a "pure T lie" that the boys didn't shove a $100 bill under the BR to get them to leave...
If she admits being in the BR together with the AV any time after the dancing stopped then she's just helped the boys immensely.... My guess is that her handlers have her saving that tidbit for the highest bidder...
good points....
I disagree. In general his statements have been fairly consistent with the events as they planed out.. Think about how you would respond to seeing what he saw 3 or 4 days later. Especially if it was something you had seen similarly before.
I don't think the fact that he has them arriving together is that big a deal... He saw them go to the house 11:50 ish and enter the back door at 12:00 ish... Wonder what they were doing on the back porch or yard for 10 minutes... Could that be the interval for which the AV drank 1 and a half mixed drinks... Surely she wasn't drinking while dancing for 4 or 10 minutes... And surely she wasn't drinking while in the BR being raped...
He sees the girls go to the car together and hears one of them say she forgot her shoe.... He hears the boys argue about the $100, I think that's important... And he verifies that something scared the boys off when he hears them leaving...
Although obviously in it for his 15 minutes, I give him fairly high marks for remembering quite a lot..
I'm still interested as to why we're no longer hearing "she was smiling and talking on her cell phone"... Now it's only "she appears to be smiling in one of the pictures"
Another question I have is how long Kim was in the back yard during that period? 6 or 7 minutes of the AV on the ground is quite a long time in my opinion... I wonder if one of the boys went and got Kim after the AV fell.
LOL Your mom sounds like my hubby's mom who passed away at age 96 last year. She was german and when someone would ask her is she wanted some beer, she would ALWAYS say "och, just a little sip" and then proceed to guzzle down half the beer. She never got a beer for herself - ever, but she could put yours away in a minute.
..you mean, like it never happened.
Does she get to say...'Just move along, I'm tired of this'.....and expect to be left alone.
I think it's a little too late to 'pull out of case'....
..She's damaged a lot of young men/reputations/job potential/schooling....
..I doubt the parents will allow her to 'pull out of the case'...without some kind of retribution.
Am I right or wrong?
I agree w/you, Guennie. There are lots of passengers w/her on the slander bandwagon that should be exposed and sued.
This seems likely and for the entire team, even those not present. Its hype has been so out of proportion.
"And he verifies that something scared the boys off when he hears them leaving..."
Ummm..perhaps it was Kim yelling to the guys that she was calling the police?
I might add they're looking at grounds to disbar him.
It was Kim... she's admitted she yelled "I called the cops you dumba$$e$"... then piled in her car and drove away...
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