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FReeper Reviews of Return of the King (Spoiler FILLED)
Dec 17,2003

Posted on 12/17/2003 10:06:13 AM PST by HairOfTheDog

Lord of the Rings:
Return of the King!
FReeper reports and reviews thread


Beyond this point there be spoilers!

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TOPICS: The Hobbit Hole
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To: HairOfTheDog
Oh without a doubt! Probably within the week! LOL! Did you get a poster?
141 posted on 12/18/2003 7:11:20 PM PST by sweetliberty (Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.)
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To: sweetliberty
We don't have this poster... We have the "So do all who see such times" poster from FoTR. Want the "There is good in this world worth fighting for" from TTT... Might be likely to get a quote poster, if/when they come up with one....
142 posted on 12/18/2003 7:13:17 PM PST by HairOfTheDog (‘I have quite finished, Sam,’ said Frodo. ‘The last pages are for you.’)
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To: HairOfTheDog
They gave everyone a poster at the theater. I hadn't seen them do that before. I was wondering if it was everywhere, or just here.
143 posted on 12/18/2003 7:16:25 PM PST by sweetliberty (Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.)
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To: BibChr; HairOfTheDog; Bear_in_RoseBear; Snake65; Tijeras_Slim; RosieCotton; ecurbh; 2Jedismom
one Freeper's review.

Whooo.... where to begin.

One problem I always have when watching these for the first time is that I have read the books so often that I have an image in my head for every scene and when I watch the movie that image often conflicts, sometimes jarringly. This time it was the death of Denethor, The way Aragorn comes to the Battle of the Pelennor, and Gandalf and Pippin meeting Denethor for the first time.

The plot is so large that I will take it a piece at a time.

Among the missing. Because of the framework of a movie, most of the 3rd Tier characters are omitted entirely and their roles taken over by main characters doing double duty. No beregond, Pippin does double duty. No halbarad and his troop of Northern Rangers, no Sons of Elrond, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli go alone to the paths of the dead. No Prince Imrahil or other Lords of Gondor. Gondor is shown with no help coming from other parts of Gondor. No problem here, Imrahil is a very one-dimensional character in the book. No black stone of erech and the fight at Pelargir vs. the corsairs. although the corsair fight is assumed. No mouth of Sauron although hints are that this was filmed and may be in the EE. I hope anyway, one of my favorite scenes.

I always wondered why Aragorn hasn't had his sword all along and now we know why. Anduril, the sword that was broken, is doing double duty as a sword and as the token of Aragorn's kingship. In the book this role was taken by the banner of the white tree and seven stars which was handmade by Arwen. This banner does not appear in the movie (that I saw) which is a shame because I was looking forward to it being unfurled from Aragorn's ship.

Merry and Pippin.
These characters I felt were given short thrift in the earlier movies so I was glad to see that they have been given room to grow, to prove their worth. Pippin finally grows up and is moved to give his life in service to Denethor, just as in the book. Pippins encounter with the Palantir is shown and was much overdramatized but it was essentially as in the book. Pippin is a fool, but an honest fool, Gandalf says, to Pippin's embarrassment. They then go to Gondor where Pippin proves his worth in service to Gondor and Denethor and provides the role that Beregond would have played if he was in the movie, being torn between allegiance to Denethor or Faramir. Pippin has a very strong scene where he feels awkward about singing a song and we see the scenes of Faramir leading a desperate charge into Osgiliath while Pippin is singing.

We don't see a strong bond between Merry and Theoden, but other than that he gets his role as well in bringing down the Chief of the Nazgul. He also has his role as the more sensible hobbit.

No houses of healing, no romance between Faramir and Eowyn although this is hinted at as they give each other some glances at the end.

No scouring of the Shire or Sharkey's End, perfectly understandable, I'm suprised and gladdened that it ended where it did.

Legolas and Gimli.
Almost always seen together or in close company, their friendship grows even closer. They continue their counting game with Gimli getting one of the best lines in the movie "That only counts as one!" This is in response to an amazing action sequence of Legolas taking down a Mumakil(Oliphaunt) singlehandedly and twenty enemies on it, counting as goes. He lands lightly on his feet as the huge beast violently slams to the ground. Legolas and Gimli also stick close to Aragorn and are his sole companions on the path to the dead, contrary to the book. Near the end when they are contemplating marching to the Black Gate, Gimli gets another good line: "Certain death? No hope? what are we waiting for?"

Aragorn.
Good stuff here, he takes the paths of the dead, and fulfills his destiny. the dead are eerily creepy and there is no black stone of erech which I missed. His best scene is before the black gates where he says "For Frodo" then leads the charge. The emotion in his face and voice as he does this is incredible and you truly have the sense that he will die that day, and he does not care.

Elrond and Arwen.
in a big departure from the book Arwen is on the way to the grey havens has second thoughts and turns back when she sees a vision of her future with Aragorn and her Son. Big departure from the book, but done in a powerfully emotional way. The son-to-be is wonderfully cast and looks like a good cross between her and Aragorn. She gets back to Rivendell convinces Elrond to reforge the sword. Elrond then makes a quick jaunt down to Dunharrow to deliver the sword in person. This is a bit jarring, but maybe Elrond has a lear jet and their is a private airstrip nearby. This whole portion essentially does a plot counterweight versus the dunedain coming to Aragorn with Arwen's Banner. Definitely in the spirit of Tolkein, if not the letter.

Denethor and Faramir.
Denethor is disappointingly one-dimensional. Very disappointing because his character had so much emotional depth and it wasn't lived up to in the movie. He is insane but the cause of his insanity is missing (the palantir) In the book you saw his wisdom and penetrating intelligence as he interrogates Pippin when the first meet. This is missed. We only see his madness, his disregard of faramir and regret over losing Boromir and he dies by throwing himself from a ledge in an unecessary departure from the book. Denethor is also portrayed as being criminally negligent in preparing for the defense of the City, Minas Tirith. In the book, he did all he could. Denethors best scene comes when he looks over the ramparts at the fields below and is stunned to see all of the hosts of Mordor arrayed against the city. He then gives up all hope and urges everyone to flee. Whereupon Gandalf knocks him upside the head. It wasn't in the book, but I wanted to knock him upside the head at that point too so when gandalf does it, I laughed.

Theoden, Eowyn and Eomer.
Good job on Theoden, Theoden first casts doubt on whether he will help Gondor, but when the beacons are lit he says "Rohan will answer" and calls for the muster. From there they go with 6000 spears, true to the book, only part of his total strength. No time for the wild men on the way, the next time we see them is on the Pelennor. Eowyn rides along disguised and takes Merry with her along the way, against the wishes of both Eomer and Theoden. Eowyn's disguise is not hidden from the audience which is just as well since it isn't a very good disguise anyway. She gets her moment when she faces the Lord of the Nazgul, who was also the Witch-king of Angmar. of him there was a prophecy that "No living man may hinder me" as he says. In the book if you are reading for the first time, there is a shock as dernhelm casts aside his helm and shows herself to be Eowyn and then says "But no living man am I!" This dialogue is changed for the worse. It was better in the book, but the scene is still powerful. Merry does his part by stabbing the Nazgul in the knee giving Eowyn her opening to finish him off.

Theoden gets his speech before the battle of the Pelennor. Word for word from the book, it is powerfully emotional and inspiring:


"Arise, arise, riders of Theoden!
Fell deeds awake, fire and slaughter!
Spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered!
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!"

Too bad Eomer does not get his speech later on where he says "Now for Wrath, now for Ruin and a red nightfall!" But I think this speech was done in the Two Towers so its all good.

Plus the way the Rohirrim pour into the ranks and overrun the orcs in the Pelennor simply has to be the best battle scene in a movie ever. period. end-of-story. This is what they were going for and they achieved it hands down.

Frodo and Samwise.
Introduced in the movie is a subplot where Gollum splits Sam and Frodo. Frodo tells Sam to go home and Sam does. I didnt like this at all, it's out of character for Sam. Frodo meets Shelob then alone and is stung and Sam has a change of heart after seeing Gollum's treachery. He finds Frodo all wrapped up and apparently dead. From there on it's pretty close to the book. One thing missing is the confrontation Sam has with the Watchers of the tower. They are there, and maybe this will be in the EE. I know, I know, not everything can be in there.

Shelob is there though and is extremely lifelike and you will NOT breathe during this sequence. In the book this is one of my favorite scenes and the movie almost does it justice, just add one more thing and I would have been happy, and that is Sam holding the vial aloft and shoulting "Gilthoniel A Elbereth!" and then defying the spider to come and taste his sting again.

The sequence at the crack of doom is perfect except for just being a bit over the top. Everything was good up to Gollum biting Frodo's finger off, but instead of immediately tumbling over, Gollum then has another fight with Frodo, they both fall off, but Frodo manages to hang on. Not true to the book, unnecessary and feels too much like normal movie cliffhanger stuff. The rest of it is fine.

You also get the feeling that we are missing a lot in Mordor, and since we are now used to the EE, we keep thinking of what we are missing.

Gandalf.
While Frodo and Sam are the emotional center of the movie. Gandalf is at the center of every plot. He truly is the mover of all things as his said about him in the movie. However, he gets rough with Denethor physically in an over the top movie way and lights the beacons himself. His scene to go get the remnants of the battle of Osgiliath is wonderful and inspiring and shows his strength and power. That bit was in the trailer and I know why. The scene will be a movie icon for years, it is that powerful. Gandalf is also a fairly kick-but warrior in his own right as we see. He serves as the entire leadership of Gondor while Denethor sits everything out.

Sets.
Minas Tirith a plus, if they didn't build a whole city for this movie, they built quite a bit. The tower of ecthelion is a marvel. the white tree is poignant for those who know the whole history of Gondor. Everything you would expect is basically there. I especially liked the Tomb of the kings, I wanted to go there immediately and spend more time looking at the walls and carvings as I felt the detail was strong enough that the setmakers probably made a tomb and inscription for each of the kings of Gondor, it Certainly looked that way anyway. The minas Tirith set was perfect for the many battles and the coronation. Minas Morgul was appropriately creepy. The paths of the dead were as well. Mount Doom and the cracks of Doom, the Sammath Naur, was perfect.

The ending.
Special mention for the way of ending this movie. After bringing us to such emotional tension we needed some time to cool down and we get it. An emotional meeting when all of the fellowship is gathered together that will get a lump on your throat. Then the coronation of Aragorn (His name as King is Elessar Telcontar as is befitting a king of his stature, Telcontar means "Strider" in High Elvish) Arwen shows up unexpectedly but a very good scene although different from the book. Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin see the King in his glory and they bow, but Aragorn and Arwen, King and Queen of Gondor and Arnor, Both Children of Earendil, Beren and Luthien. They bow before the hobbits. All of Gondor bows with them, and the hobbits just stand there stunned, awkward, not comfortable as they all pay homage.

The next scene is an old hobbit scowling at them as they stroll through the shire in all their foreign ironmongery.

the next scene they are all sitting in the green dragon sharing a beer. the entire bar is completely oblivious to them, all they have gone through, and the entire world around them. Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin don't say a word but they say everything with shared looks and smiles. In the world of men they are heroes. In the Shire, they are again, just good old hobbits. Just as they wanted it to be. No words are spoken and it is one of the most powerful scenes in the movie.

another haunting scene where Frodo walks through Bag End alone. Not sure of himself, and not comfortable there again. I'm projecting here, but I think Frodo is wondering whether he can ever call it home again, or if anywhere in Middle Earth can be home again.

The scene at the boats is moving and if you werent crying before you will be here. I won't say more.

and the very end where Sam says "I'm back". Perfect. I was definitely misty. Hell I'm getting misty now, just writing about it. Guess I'm an old softy at heart.

144 posted on 12/18/2003 8:02:35 PM PST by delapaz
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To: BibChr
re: your #103

I think that was at Isengard, which was a good scene. Well matched to Flotsam and Jetsam in the Two Towers book.

145 posted on 12/18/2003 8:04:36 PM PST by delapaz
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To: sweetliberty
Oooh - No we didn't get a giveaway poster!
146 posted on 12/18/2003 8:30:33 PM PST by HairOfTheDog (‘I have quite finished, Sam,’ said Frodo. ‘The last pages are for you.’)
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To: delapaz
Extensive review.... and well thought-out praise and grievances!

147 posted on 12/18/2003 8:33:57 PM PST by HairOfTheDog (‘I have quite finished, Sam,’ said Frodo. ‘The last pages are for you.’)
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To: HairOfTheDog
Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool. It was this one:

.


148 posted on 12/18/2003 8:45:52 PM PST by sweetliberty (Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.)
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To: HairOfTheDog
Looks like I have to throw in my €0.02 of comments!

In my humble opinion, this is BY FAR the best of the three Lord of the Rings films, with incredible action that is nothing short of breathtaking. Acting performances overall are quite good, especially Bernard Hill, Miranda Otto, Ian McKellen, Sean Astin and Andy Serkis. I especially like Astin's performance as Samwise Gamgee, one that shows amazing devotion and perserverance in the fact of extreme danger.

By the way, did you notice the combat sequence of Eowyn taking on the Lord of the Nazgul and the Fell Beast he was riding elicited the most cheers? And so did Legolas taking on the Mumakil and its riders on top of the beast?

I'm definitely seeing this movie again soon.

149 posted on 12/18/2003 8:57:06 PM PST by RayChuang88
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To: HairOfTheDog
It was wonderful---but it does leave one melancholy! I can call no movie fair after these...
150 posted on 12/19/2003 3:38:18 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: HairOfTheDog
We went on Wednesday, and first off I highly recommend it (well, duh).

I, too, have misgivings about some of the deviations from the book, but I realize that some concessions have to be made, so I give them a pass.

The story picks up pretty quickly, as if you had just finished seeing TT. (btw - I really wish they had one of those 1+2+3 marathons near us).

The battle scenes were powerful, with even Gandalf pulling out the stops, although Eowyn steals the show.

I won't talk Denethor (doing his Ozzy impression?), since others have covered it.

Where I will quibble is about the Frodo/Sam/Gollum scenes. I thought TT captured the theme of forgiveness & redemption rather well. This was one case where filmatic license went too far afield, and it lost the thread, and thus a major theme.

The Shelob scenes rock! They are riveting in the same way as the Mines of Moriah in part one.

The colorful return to the Shire was a welcome relief, after the cold grey of Gondor.

Can't wait to go see it again!
151 posted on 12/19/2003 4:03:38 AM PST by P.O.E.
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To: JenB
Thanks for the fun read.

I am sorry they took out the scene on the stair where Gollum almost repents. The bit with the lembas seems cheap in comparison. I think it's a case of the filmers didn't quite get what Tolkien was doing there.

Yes, that is THE most tragically moving scene in all the books, IMHO. It is a shame for it to be out.

Pippin and Gandalf's little speech about the afterlife... ... this movie was about death and it was glorious. Wow.

That was totally fabricated, though, wasn't it? As an LOTR fan and a Christian, I felt it was a bit of universalistic, Hollywood nonsense. But your precise knowledge of LOTR has trumped mine before -- is that anywhere in the books?

I plan to see it a second time, alone, today. Valerie did last night, and was wowed.

Dan

152 posted on 12/19/2003 6:37:18 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: ecurbh
A *guy*! Crying in a movie!!!

(I cry in movies, too! Didn't this time, first time; may well do it today, though. But Saving Private Ryan, The Patriot, others... tears rolling down my cheeks!)

Dan
(c8
153 posted on 12/19/2003 6:39:03 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: BibChr
It's not in the book, no. And it is universalist in intent, but I looked at it as "this is what happens to Christians". And from Gandalf, it's fitting - he's already died! And he'd know.

Since LotR was written from a Christian worldview, some of that carries over to the movies. I think you have to look at it as if the stuff they mean generally applies to a narrow group of people than the filmmakers think...

Have fun! I'm going after church on Sunday.
154 posted on 12/19/2003 6:40:43 AM PST by JenB (21 Days Til EntMoot)
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To: JenB; BibChr
Don't you think you might be going a bit far in attempting to apply Christian rules to Middle Earth heaven?

This is a fantasy story in a pre-Savior culture with no obvious doctrine to accept or reject to gain salvation. It either is a universalist world where all souls would conceptually have a shot at heaven or a world in which only the elves and other selected people get to go.... if there is a boat to take them.

Gandalf's speech is from the book, but in a different context than in the film.... it is from the Grey Havens.
155 posted on 12/19/2003 7:07:47 AM PST by HairOfTheDog (‘I have quite finished, Sam,’ said Frodo. ‘The last pages are for you.’)
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To: JenB
Thanks. Some of my coworkers are wondering how many tickets will end up framing my monitor!

Dan
156 posted on 12/19/2003 7:08:05 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: HairOfTheDog
No.
157 posted on 12/19/2003 7:09:07 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: BibChr
Oh come on Dan! - You know I love and respect the themes the story teaches us.... I just honestly wonder about the question I posed. Who are the saved in this story? - only the elves and those ring-bearers and others who were granted passage on the boat? What is Pippin's eternal fate?
158 posted on 12/19/2003 7:11:37 AM PST by HairOfTheDog (‘I have quite finished, Sam,’ said Frodo. ‘The last pages are for you.’)
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To: HairOfTheDog; BibChr
Tolkien seems to see Middle-Earth as a pre-Christ world, yes. I believe he made a comment about the Numenoreans being sort of Jewish in their religious observations.

Anyway the Elves don't go to Heaven. Valinor isn't really heaven, it's part of creation. Men, who die and leave this world, have some chance at heaven, but it's not specified what the rules are.

And hobbits are probably covered under Men...
159 posted on 12/19/2003 7:17:46 AM PST by JenB (21 Days Til EntMoot)
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To: HairOfTheDog; JenB
Pippin asks about life after death.

Movie-Gandalf's answer is an unqualified "Everything's great and beautiful for everybody."

Tolkien's Gandalf, I am pretty sure, never said anything of the kind.

Tolkien himself (not I) said LOTR is a fundamentally Catholic and Christian novel. Tolkien was a Roman Catholic; I emphatically am not. But I do not believe this represents Tolkien's views; it does, however, most emphatically represent Hollywood's religion.

That's all I was asking Jen -- if my memory of ROTK was correct. If you find a passage in ROTK to the contrary, I will be interested in reading it.

Dan
160 posted on 12/19/2003 7:50:17 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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