Posted on 08/15/2015 4:45:38 AM PDT by don-o
The autopsy reports for the nine men killed in the Twin Peaks Massacre in Waco on May 17 are a thicket of words that don’t seem to answer many questions. The reports may be as important for what they don’t disprove as for what they do or don’t prove. They do not for example, disprove the notion that all, or at least most of the dead men were killed by police using M-16s and FN P90 machine guns.
Thirteen of sixteen entrance wounds were .25 inches in diameter or smaller.
FN P90s fire a round with a diameter of .224409 inches. M-16s fire slightly smaller rounds with diameters of 0.218898 inches. All but one of the victims had wounds fired from a downward trajectory. Six of the nine dead had head or neck wounds. None of the wounds contained gunshot residue which indicates that the shots were fired from at least three feet away and probably five feet or farther away. The absence of residue casts doubt on claims by prosecutors of “Bandidos executing Cossacks, and Cossacks executing Bandidos.” Two of the dead had large wounds consistent with a 12 gauge shotgun slug. Ten of 16 wounds were in the back, indicating that the victims were running away when they died. Seven of the wounds were fired from right to left. Six were fired from left to right.
Nine millimeter bullets have a diameter of 0.35433 inches; forty caliber handguns fire a bullet that is four tenths of an inch in diameter and 357 magnums fire rounds that are about .357 inches in diameter.
Highly Deformed
Most of the recovered bullets were either highly deformed or fragmented which indicates they were fired by high velocity weapons and suggests those bullets were shaped like a swallow’s tail. Bullets fired from M-16s have a muzzle velocity of 3,110 feet per second. Bullets fired from FN P90s leave that weapon’s comparatively short barrel at 2,350 feet per second. Bullets generally leave the barrels of nine millimeter handguns at between 950 and 1,300 feet per second; 40 mm handguns generally have a muzzle velocity of between 1,000 and 1,200 feet per second; bullets leave a .357 magnum at about 1,500 feet per second or less; 38 Specials generally have a muzzle velocity of 1,000 feet per second or less.
Most police ammunition in the United States is designed to penetrate a human body to a depth of 12 inches and for that reason that ammunition is usually copper jacketed. Most of the bullets that killed at the Twin Peaks were copper jacketed. Bullets fired from high velocity M-16s, have a tendency to tumble after impact. M-16 rounds tumble because the tail of the projectile is heavier than the nose. The kinetic energy contained in the round has to go somewhere so the bullet tumbles, deforms and usually stops before reaching a depth of 12 inches. Most of the wounds described in the autopsies are consistent with wounds inflicted by M-16s. Both M-16s and FN P90s fire swallow tail shaped bullets.
None of the autopsies include ballistics information. Notations by eight pathologists involved in the autopsies describe bullets and bullet fragments in very general and inconsistent terms. One hundred fifty-one firearms were seized at the crime scene. Bikers usually carry small caliber pistols that range from small revolvers and derringers up to .380 automatics. Ballistic tests on the weapons seized at the Twin Peaks are being conducted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. An informed source with knowledge of ATF procedures speculated that the tests would be completed in November.
I saw what you posted. I read what you posted.
I have no problem with vision or comprehension.
Most of the Bikers arrested had NO criminal history.
Post all the copies of TX penal law you want, it doesn’t change the fact.
As for your “wannabe” comment, go pound sand.
I knew some of the same people you so quickly call criminals when you were still pooping green in your diapers.
You know nothing of my youth, or where and how I grew up.
I’m not going into this with anymore of you “police can do no wrong” sycophants.
I was pinged about your post and did NOT respond to you.
Please extend me the same courtesy.
” ‘I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years.’”
Robert Teesdale said:
Quite true. By its nature, law is the use of force to circumscribe liberty. I simply would argue that a law which crosses the Constitutional line, is no law at all - and neither I nor others owe such legislation any obedience or even respect.
***
I agree with this. However, you must carefully pick your battles and strategies with the intent of being as successful as possible. The question here seems to be whether or not the police acted in a constitutional manner, or did they use excessive force. And, any local or state law has to pass constitutional muster, and if the state laws I cited earlier don’t make the cut, then so be it - they need to change. But, so far they have passed the muster, and they have been VERY useful tools in securing public safety. But, since we are a society of laws, there are procedures to follow in order to secure change if change is needed. And, laws can be changed - even by just one person. I’ve been fortunate enough to do this. So, I know that if I can do it, larger and more vocal groups with more resources than I possess can also do it.
In addressing the incident at hand, I’ve yet to see anyone arguing from the perspective of the innocent bystanders that were present, and the danger they were exposed to by two biker groups engaged in an armed parking lot war. This much I know:
(1) Although there were bikers shot by police, there was also gunfire by bikers. There are too many witness statements and affidavits on file to deny this. My worthless opinion on this is when and if these cases ever get before a judge, (I suspect most of them will plead out) this will be something that the defense will not contest. They will likely argue that it wasn’t their client who fired, but other bikers.
(2) I’ve heard more than one person argue that there was no danger to bystanders since it was in an open area, with no exposed innocent bystanders close by. Really? My wife is a CHL instructor. When we built the pistol range on our ranch for this, I went to great effort to determine just how far and with what velocity certain popular handgun cartridges would perform, just in case someone put a round over the dirt berm. I can tell you right now that a hardball round out of my Glock 23 in .40 caliber will travel 300 yards, carry enough velocity to penetrate a T-111 siding outer wall, continue through a 3/4” sheetrock inner wall, and keep right on going. There is no doubt that ANYONE in the vicinity as far as the eye can see, visible in a window, or traveling ANY of the roads close by was in IMMEDIATE danger from this gunfire at Twin Peaks that day. Drive-by shooters “accidentally” kill many people annually. These bikers were no different.
(3) It appears there were some taken into custody who were CHL licensed gun carriers. The problem is, just because you are a CHL holder, that doesn’t mean you can pack the heat for all your buddies who are not legally able to carry. I have no doubt the DPS will be quick to revoke the CHL licenses of these individuals, and likely pursue prosecution.
I have to wonder what some of the biker defenders here expected the police to do. I haven’t seen any of them suggest they would just walk right in between two groups with high adrenaline levels in the process of shooting and stabbing each other, and ask why we can’t all just get along. I’ve had personal, first hand experience with the damage knife blades and bullets do to human flesh. I’ll pass. And, I would recommend the police pass also. They are paid to expose themselves to a certain level of calculated danger, but this would be suicide.
From the evidence so far, I can only form the opinion that the police acted legally and prudently. There was an immediate public threat in process, and they used sufficient (but not excessive) force to deal with it. The case isn’t over, and neither are the investigations. Things could change - including my opinion. But, I have some associates who are watching this case rather closely, and it isn’t looking good for the bikers.
We expect the police to act like lawmen in the presence of average American motorcyclists who belong to clubs, attending a long-scheduled, pre-announced COCI meeting.
You are okay with the police acting like soldiers, killing enemy combatants identified by insignia and then taking POWs. VERY different from the acts of lawmen. There were ZERO lawmen at Waco -- you utterly FAIL to discern the difference, and it is beyond puzzling. It is downright suspicious.
You are so very extremely misguided and ignorant -- it is mind boggling. Again, DO YOU LIVE IN AN ATTIC and only get your knowledge of the real world from TV?
It's the only explanation for your being so happy and willing to buy into the myth of Sons of Anarchy.
Finny said:
We expect the police to act like lawmen in the presence of average American motorcyclists who belong to clubs, attending a long-scheduled, pre-announced COCI meeting.
***
I thought you were through responding to me!
Finny then said:
It’s the only explanation for your being so happy and willing to buy into the myth of Sons of Anarchy.
****
Actually, I don’t care for the Sons Of Anarchy, but my biker brother and all of his buddies watch it, and talk about it like stay-at-home wives watching their favorite soap opera.
Social consequences are one thing.
Legal consequences are a whole 'nother talk show.
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