Posted on 10/09/2014 7:28:17 AM PDT by LeoMcNeil
BTW, Eck’s charge of Jews using blood of Christian babies is very similar to the same charges of another ally of the Catholic church, Arafat. Another nominal Catholic. Must have learned his AS from Luther?
When they weren’t killed. Nazis killed Jews. The question is why. Because of Luther’s writings? Or because as nominal Catholics whose church practiced anti-semitism up to WWII they learned it there? Or because the were Nazis, eugenicists/Darwinists scapegoating the ‘lesser races who conspired against Germany’. History and Christianity makes me say it was because they were Nazis, that’s what Nazis did. Since the Lutheran church didn’t subscribe to Luther’s thoughts on these matters, blaming them seems stupid. If one is to blame a church, (I don’t) it seems that a church which practiced this type of behavior for over a millenia might have to shoulder that blame. Especially considering the relatively recent exercises of anti-semitism and the company that Church has kept over the recent decades.
Pope John Paul II apologized for the sins of the Catholics.
I wonder how much sincerity is there when a rabid anti-Jew, Arafat, Catholic friend had died in 2004. Laying that aside, 1900 years of abuse and finally the Pope apologizes. That's nice, come again in 1500 years, maybe the Lutherans will all be lib and have a Pope to do so as well.
t seems to me very painful and bitter when one has built a religion on a man like Martin Luther, when one has to face the real possibility that he fell from grace and is excluded from the kingdom. It may be too much of an obstacle for those who venerate him.
More seems? Lutheranism, named by the Catholics against Luther's wishes doesn't venerate anyone. We don't make such fake distinctions as the Catholics. All praise to Christ alone! Lutheran doctrine resides in the Book of Concord and drawn from Scripture, all of it. As far as a 'fall from grace' you do really do know nothing: In his last moments, Luther was asked by his friend Justus Jonas, “Do you want to die standing firm on Christ and the doctrine you have taught?” He answered emphatically, “Yes!” Luther’s last words were: “We are beggars. This is true.”
He knew who his Redeemer was, Christ and Christ alone. Not His mom. Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus.
I don't believe you can know either of those assertions as facts, just as you cannot know all his secret sins. You can know what is recorded. It does seem to me that you must believe Luther is in heaven or your religion comes apart at the seams. It was founded on Luther rebelling from his Catholic faith and formulating the religious doctrines upon which Lutheranism relies. If Luther was mentally ill, or just evil, all that foundation is burned.
Trying to shore up a master so the movement endures is not unusual. Trying to shift the blame to another will not absolve Luther either.
Luther hated the Jews and wrote about it; his writings are beyond the pale and it seems to me he was under the influence of that adversary, the dragon, who has sought the destruction of the Jews at every turn in history. The Nazis, under the same influence, invoked Luther to justify the Holocaust, implementing his seven or so steps.
Back to SEEMING again. My salvation like Luther's is based on believing that Christ redeemed us, period. His salvation was based on his belief, mine is based on my belief sustained by the Holy Spirit as Scripture and the Lutheran church teaches. Founded on God's Word, I have no need of the superstitions of the Catholics nor to be in communion with those that deny the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice and resurrection by adding additional non biblical dogma as a condition to go to purgatory.
If Luther was mentally ill, or just evil, all that foundation is burned.
Because the mentally ill can't go to heaven? Evil men can't get right with God via repentance. Strange Christianity there, but then again you're a Catholic, who knows what Traditions there are.
Trying to shift the blame to another will not absolve Luther either.
I didn't know Luther was alive in the run up to WWII. I know the Catholic church was and complicit in acts of AS. How many secretly approved of the early stages of the Nazi acts against the Jews? Certainly wasn't out of line with their Catholic ancestors, but then Hitler killed more than the Church had. No numbers for the Lutherans, but the throne of Rome was certainly stained with the blood of Jews. I am not trying to absolve Luther for Luther's acts, they were between himself and his Lord. But as with the priest underage homo sex scandal, some modern day Catholics try to tar others with the brush. So it is with you and AS, Luther wrote an execrable treatise along with many of his adversaries. I've denounced Luther's, but not a word of admonition or regret for the same from Catholic scholars of the same day from such a pious man as yourself.
The Nazis, under the same influence, invoked Luther to justify the Holocaust, implementing his seven or so steps.
Now you don't even read posts to you and make these ridiculous statements. Little commonality between Luther's steps and the Nazis. Lots and lots of commonality with the Catholics and Nazis.
it seems to me he was under the influence of that adversary, the dragon,
More SEEMING from you, but you're correct in this one. Luther did allow Satan to influence that writing. Sadly, he did it anyway. Thanks be to God for repentance.
I missed this snippet, I don't know if Luther ever killed a Jew, but for someone as famous as he was it is doubtful it wouldn't have been noticed. Luther's secret sins? Luther taught daily repentance do you assert now with no proof that he didn't do it himself? After all, with you, the writings make the man. As for knowing his Redeemer, you should try something of Luther beside the JATL. How about when he kicked Eck's hind end at the Diet of Worms? Good stuff. Fortunately he had a real safe passage unlike Hus who was burnt after being guaranteed the same by Catholics.
That is not the impression I get from reading your comments. It seems to me you are tightly coupled with Luther and dependent on him being saved for you to be saved. I think that is the, perhaps unstated or understated, premise of Lutherism. Without Luther it is primary facile illegitimate. He is the self-appointed apostle of the Gentiles who ended up hating the Jews, the antithesis of blessed Paul, who we know is in the kingdom of heaven. Because the mentally ill can't go to heaven? Evil men can't get right with God via repentance.
No, you miss the point. One defense of Luther is that he was mentally ill. If so, he was under the influence and not of a sound mind when he reformed something into a new religion. If he was evil, well, there are many passages in the NT warning against teachers like that too. No numbers for the Lutherans,
They were approximately two thirds of the German nation, the vast majority were complicit in the Holocaust, especially in light of Matthew 25.
I've denounced Luther's, but not a word of admonition or regret for the same from Catholic scholars of the same day from such a pious man as yourself.
I denounce the evil sins of all the Germans, Catholic and Lutheran, who hated and persecuted the Jews. I further denounce all the sins of the Gentiles that have failed the LORD God of Jacob by maligning Jacob in their envy, malice, pride, wicked imaginations, and ungodly antisemitism, from the time the Jewish apostles were martyred unto this day.
Thanks be to God for repentance.
I'm not aware Luther ever repented. Luther Favored the Death Penalty for Anabaptists Because They Opposed Infant Baptism, As Well As Other Catholic Doctrines He Held Onto.
He did not value Jews as human beings. They were vermin to Luther. He had already decided and written he was at fault for not slaying them. Perhaps he was trying to justify something he had done. God will judge secret sins.
National Socialist ideology had almost nothing to do with Christian doctrine or either of the major churches in Germany. Hitler learned racism while he was a tramp living in Vienna. He so much as said he had never seen or known Jews prior to moving to Vienna. When he saw them, he said he noticed they were different. He then made the next logical step, wondering if they were Germans.
In fact, Hitler’s obsession with being German dates to his childhood. It was popular among Austrians living in border communities (Hitler’s father was an Austrian customs agent) to identify with their German heritage over anything else. It makes a bit of sense in light of what was happening in Austria at the time. The Hapsburgs allowed the Hungarians to share power with Austrian-Germans in what was known as the duel monarchy. Austrian-Germans lost a good deal of their power in the mid to late 19th century. In reaction, many of them gravitated toward extreme expressions of their Germaness.
The National Socialists as a whole followed Hitler. They were influenced by American eugenics as well. Their view of race and soil is intertwined with German occult religions, were also quite popular in Germany during the 20’s and 30’s.
Hitler didn’t get his anti-semitism from Luther. He wasn’t even a Lutheran. Instead, he and his party used Luther’s arguments to tie their own arguments with Germans of the past. It had nothing to do with Luther whatsoever but rather it had everything to do with the National Socialists obtaining and keeping power.
Nazis considered Christianity to be a weak doctrine. In fact, Himmler greatly admired Islam, and actually wished the Turks had won at The Battle of Vienna, because to him Islam was the perfect religion for soldiers.
This is true. In fact some of the problems we face in the middle east can be traced to both the fall of the Ottoman Empire after WWI and the National Socialists in WWII. Germany recruited Muslims throughout the middle east to fight the British. Iraq in particular was involved, the Germans even sent them planes. Saddam Hussein’s Uncle was captured by the British while fighting for the Nazi supported rebels. Saddam’s lifelong hatred of Britain flowed directly from his uncle.
Missed nothing, Never heard that as a defense, slur maybe. Nice to rake on a dead guy, who would smoke you if alive, or ignore you for papism.
They were approximately two thirds of the German nation, the vast majority were complicit in the Holocaust, especially in light of Matthew 25.
And it didn't turn off the Catholics? Oh wait, they were already practicing a dead man's preaching.
I denounce the evil sins of all the Germans, Catholic and Lutheran, who hated and persecuted the Jews. I further denounce all the sins of the Gentiles that have failed the LORD God of Jacob by maligning Jacob in their envy, malice, pride, wicked imaginations, and ungodly antisemitism, from the time the Jewish apostles were martyred unto this day.
How about the Italian, Spanish French etc Catholics and their devilish AS?
I'm not aware Luther ever repented.
Nor did the Catholic church, probably where Luther learned it. At any rate, History shows that Catholics individually and collectively did kill Jews.
Roman Catholics would seem not to be deserving of disproportionate blame unless there was some other large Christian (or pagan) group that did not persecute Jews when they could.
Catholics have a long history of persecuting the Jews. Catholics used secular power in areas they controlled or had influence. Also right up to the start of WWII Catholics of influence were engaged in AS.
The claim also has been made that Luther had the 'blueprint' for the Holocaust. Evidence to the contrary depicting Catholic and Nazi similarities has also been presented.
I believe that one's sins are one's own. That the Nazis of any religion are responsible for their conduct. Others here disagree.
Well, when you are so wrong about so many things, what's another?
I'm not aware Luther ever repented.
I bet he didn't know that he had to check with you, probably forgot to email you. Luther wrote on daily repentance more than he did Jews, and you are the man who equates a man with his writings. While there won't be a Nazi reference to use, google Luther daily repentance.
One’s sins are one’s own.
Being Amalek, or Esau, or Ishmael, or Israel, is a quality of the soul that the flesh accepts or denies.
I agree with you.
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