Scalia flummoxed about natural born citizenship

WND ^ | 9/01/2012 | Larry Klayman

[GregNH]

[SNIP]Last week, I had the occasion to cross paths with “revered” Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. Scalia has been for many years the darling of conservatives, a judge who they believed had the guts to enforce the Rule of Law and the Constitution in the face of corrosive influences, foreign and domestic. I took the occasion to ask him a simple question, one he would be able to answer. I asked the “constitutionalist” Scalia what he believed to be the definition of “natural born citizen,” without asking him to render an opinion on whether Obama was eligible to be president, given that Obama’s father was not a citizen of the United States at the time he claims falsely that he was born here.

Looking like a deer in the headlights and stuttering sheepishly, Justice Scalia responded, “I don’t know. Isn’t a natural born citizen a person born in this country?” I pressed on, asking “then why are there separate references to ‘citizen’ and ‘natural born citizen’ in the Constitution?” Again, Justice Scalia, pulling back out of apparent fright at having to give a straight answer, responded in the same fashion, “I don’t know.”

[9YearLurker]

From my understanding, if Barack Sr. was really his father and he wasn’t born in the US, Jr. isn’t rightly a US citizen at all. (Since his mother was too young at the time to by the laws at the time to pass on US citizenship in those circumstances.)

[9YearLurker]

This is very disappointing.

[reefdiver]

You can bet it will be resolved if the Republicans attempt a similar stunt

[Eric in the Ozarks]

There is no reference to a candidate’s parents in the constitution.

[Perdogg]

There was also US v Wong Kim Ark. I have already stated my posititon which is supported by Mark Levin and Fred Thompson, both of whom are lawyers.

[PapaNew]

It has been resolved by the 14th amendment

How does the 14th Amendment resolve the meaning of "natural born citizen" in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5?

[TEXOKIE]

bfl

[GregNH]

I disagree. They use to give legitimacy to this administration.

[Vaquero]

Roberts sold his soul to the devil for his wife’s Beltway social life.

[PapaNew]

A lot of people are lawyers. I’m about to become a lawyer also. Doesn’t matter who’s a lawyer, what matters is a diligent inquiry into the original understanding of a word or phrase in the text that is unclear on the face and applying that original intent to the case at hand.

[GregNH]

Mi>I have already stated my posititon which is supported by Mark Levin and Fred Thompson, both of whom are lawyers.

You keep your lawyers and I'll raise you the author of the 14th!

John Bingham, "father of the 14th Amendment", the abolitionist congressman from Ohio who prosecuted Lincoln's assassins, reaffirmed the definition known to the framers, not once, but twice during Congressional discussions of Citizenship pertaining to the upcoming 14th Amendment and a 3rd time nearly 4 years after the 14th was adopted.

The House of Representatives definition for "natural born Citizen" was read into the Congressional Record during the Civil War, without contest!

"All from other lands, who by the terms of [congressional] laws and a compliance with their provisions become naturalized, are adopted citizens of the United States; all other persons born within the Republic, of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty, are natural born citizens. Gentleman can find no exception to this statement touching natural-born citizens except what is said in the Constitution relating to Indians." (Cong. Globe, 37th, 2nd Sess., 1639 (1862)).

 

The House of Representatives definition for "natural born Citizen" was read into the Congressional Record after the Civil War, without contest!

“every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))"

No other Representative ever took issue with these words on the floor of the House. If you read the Congressional Globe to study these debates, you will see that many of the underlying issues were hotly contested. However, Bingham’s definition of “natural born citizen” (born of citizen parents in the sovereign territory of the U.S.) was never challenged on the floor of the House. Without a challenge on the definition, it appears the ALL where in agreement.

 
Then, during a debate (see pg. 2791) on April 25, 1872 regarding a certain Dr. Houard, who had been incarcerated in Spain, the issue was raised on the floor of the House of Representatives as to whether the man was a US citizen (generally. they were not trying to decide if he was a NBC). Representative Bingham (of Ohio), stated on the floor:

“As to the question of citizenship I am willing to resolve all doubts in favor of a citizen of the United States. That Dr. Houard is a natural-born citizen of the United States there is not room for the shadow of a doubt. He was born of naturalized parents within the jurisdiction of the United States, and by the express words of the Constitution, as amended to-day, he is declared to all the world to be a citizen of the United States by birth.”

(The term “to-day”, as used by Bingham, means “to date”. Obviously, the Constitution had not been amended on April 25, 1872. And, since they knew he was, without a doubt, a natural born Citizen...he was, of course, considered a citizen of the U.S.)

The take away from this is that, while the debates and discussions went on for years in the people's house regarding "citizenship" and the 14th Amendment, not a single Congressman disagreed with the primary architect's multiple statements on who is a natural born Citizen per the Constitution. The United States House was in complete agreement at the time. NBC = born in sovereign U.S. territory, to 2 citizen parentS who owe allegiance to no other country.

[Perdogg]

This is the problem with theories. in 2009, Jerome Corsi claimed B0’s father was Barack Sr.

Corsi contested that presumption that 0bama was born Hawaii, however, it appears that Corsi now claims that Frank Marshall Davis was 0bama’s father which would complicate the theory that 0bama was born in Kenya.

[Brilliant]

Scalia would be a fool to answer the question. He’d just get himself disqualified if the issue ever came up.

[txrefugee]

Shouldn’t this issue have been ruled on long ago, to state who is qualified to be president? The SCOTUS is the most derelict branch of government, and that is saying something.

[PapaNew]

There is no reference to a candidate’s parents in the constitution.

Bingo. Hence the need to look at what was meant and intended by our framers in the use of "natural born citizen" in the context of non-citizen parents who subsequently became citizens.

[RummyChick]

pay close attention to the “Well,..maybe...” of Scalia

Justice Breyer: Yes, I mean, their... their citizenship is conferred by statute, and they are citizens from birth, and there are probably tens of millions of them, and George Romney was one of them, and I had not thought that they were naturalized citizens.

I thought they were citizens who were citizens by virtue of their birth, and they’re citizens from birth, but you were saying they’re the same as naturalized.

Or maybe I misunderstood.

Ms Davis: Yes.

Your Honor, the wording of the Constitution is natural born citizens for purposes of being President or Vice President.

And what... I haven’t done the research myself.

What commentators say is that natural born is the equivalent of... includes, encompasses jus soli and jus sanguinis.

But that’s a different term than naturalized.

Justice Breyer: If that’s so, then those who... then those who are born abroad of an American parent are natural born citizens in your view?

Ms Davis: That’s correct.

Justice Breyer: Contrasted with naturalized citizens who would have been aliens who previously were aliens and would have become citizens by virtue of a naturalization law; is that right?

Ms Davis: Your Honor, I guess the question is whether the term naturalized in the Constitution also encompasses natural born citizens.

In Rogers versus Bellei suggested that it did.

Justice Breyer: Well, I... for present purposes what we’re interested in is what standard of review to apply, and whether the extremely deferential standard applies to these natural born citizens.

Ms Davis: I think it’s... I think it’s totally clear that jus sanguinis citizenship has a different history than naturalized citizenship and has traditionally by this Court as well as by Congress been treated differently.

Justice Scalia: But has not been called natural born citizenship?

I mean, isn’t it clear that the natural born requirement in the Constitution was intended explicitly to exclude some Englishmen who had come here and spent some time here and then went back and raised their families in England?

They did not want that.

They wanted natural born Americans.

Ms Davis: Yes, by the same token...

Justice Scalia: That is jus soli, isn’t it?

Ms Davis: By the same token, one could say that the provision would apply now to ensure that Congress can’t apply suspect classifications to keep certain individuals from aspiring to those offices.

Justice Scalia: Well, maybe.

---

Also note..from that exchange...born on US soil might be enough for Scalia.

[9YearLurker]

Right.

I don’t know how the law deals with such issues, but I’ve taken it that if push came to shove, were he really born abroad and it were so proved, that Barry could and would play the ‘really Frank Davis’s son’ card.

[Perdogg]

You are correct. However, allegiance that you bold is in reference to obedience to US Federal Govt, not where the parents came from. If you are legally in the US, you give birth to a child, that child is naturally born. You can argue with Mark Levin, I love to hear that.

[GBA]

Will it ever be resolved?

Resolved? Probably not. Decided? Oh yeah, just like obamacare was decided and Kelo was decided and Roe v Wade was decided.

They'll find and decide what they need to to keep their masters happy and then go back to enjoying their lifetime perks.

They aren't going to decide against obama and that voting block and they aren't going to decide against people like Rubio, the GOPe's counter to obama.

Anchor babies are natural born now, illegal immigrants soon will be. Who cares what a bunch of old dead white men had to say? What did they know? We have Kagan and that wise latina Sotomayor to guides us now.

[phockthis]

Nice find.

Thank you