Posted on 08/11/2011 1:48:27 PM PDT by Celerity
Thank you for taking the time to read my Vanity post.
A lot of people here, and in my face-to-face world, have mentioned that the mobs, riots and looting that is occuring around the world would take a different path here in the US, in areas where people are allowed to carry firearms, and use them in accordance with both laws and sensibility.
And it's the Sensibility portion of that I would like to discuss.
Everytime I measure and imagine (Simulations!) my response to violent flash mobs or rioters, I come up snake eyes. Here are two of such scenarios that I play out in my mind:
#1 I'm in my local convenience store, buying .. i dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes and gasoline. Suddenly the front door swings open and the place is rushed by 10 or more teens who are screaming, destroying the store and running out with items.
#2 I'm dropping off some things at the post office to mail out. Say, I dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes. An orchestrated attacks begins throughout my downtown area. 50, 100, 200 people start throwing rocks through windows, molotov cocktails, bricks, porn mags or stale cigarettes through store windows, setting fires or what-have-you.
We have heard around these parts how the outcome would be different were an armed populace involved. Well, "Here I am" . Now what ?
At what point in these events will it be both legal, and importantly: Prudent to present a firearm ? In the convenience store example, I have seen as few as 3 people cause so much ruckus that a knife was drawn and a kid was stabbed almost instantly. The kid didn't even know he was stabbed in the chaos. In the riot situation, Hiding or just leaving is the important decision, but are there scenarios that change that play ?
I see innocent people being hurt in riots all the time. But when is it time to draw a firearm and use it? I don't see the immediate danger to myself (Unless I'm the target of the protest, such as at a Union rally).
Help me connect some dots and make a correct decision.
Thanks !
-> Steve
Is there a difference between “brandishing” and “showing”
I have had 2 instances where I have “shown” my weapon, one holstered, one laid on dash, that kept a situation from escalating.
First off....I’m not getting beat up by anybody. You lay one finger on me and you’re dead. I’ll be packing a 38 hammerless Smith and Wesson in my jacket. Maybe two.....licence or no licence.
You shoot one or two...the rest will run for Je$$e Jack$on.
According to DOJ crime statistics, guns are used 2.5-million times per year to prevent robberies, rapes, murders, carjackings, home-invasions, etc., 99% of the time without a shot being fired.
History my fellow FReeper!! HISTORY!!
During the Rodney King riots...Shop owners manned their stores with shotguns. Saved them from being burnt down.
Reminder :
I wouldn’t even think of using a gun to protect property. Property can be had again. Even a righteous shot will cost over $20k in legal fees. Prison time is to be avoided. Let them take it.
I work as an I.T. consultant. I carry all the time. When asked why, I have a scripted response - I am specific.
“I have on me anywhere from 1 laptop to 10 or more PCs and servers. They are worth between $1000 and $10,000 each. I do not carry to protect the property - that’s what insurance is for. I carry because a criminal doesn’t think the way I do, and will likely kill me for as little as $100 in stuff. I carry not to protect computers, I carry to protect myself from those willing to kill me for computers.”
I conceal - Deeply - so no one has yet asked me to repeat this in my daily routine. But I do need people to understand that in the Convenience store / flash mob scenario, I wouldn’t care about the items on the shelf. Not my thing - that’s insurance. I do care about them coming close to me, shanking me, or hitting me with something. I wouldn’t flee the store - because there are others there who may need protection (The shopkeep, for instance) but I also wouldn’t pull a gun on some kid for vandalism and shoplifting. If it were to happen to me - I don’t yet know the proper response.
The riot thing - There are tactics already laid out for that response. The tactic is “Run away / hide”. Use my gun to run away and hide. Get to my car. Get out of town. Leave.
So if the proper response to these situations is “Do nothing / maintain defensive perimeter around innocents” and “Run / hide”... Then how will gun ownership curtail the flash mobs and rioters ?
We can’t use them in a legal or moral way to stop this sort of violence. Riots will continue, government will step in, totalitarianism kicks in, we lose. We take to the streets, armed, and totalitarianism kicks in, we lose. What’s the tactic here?
Yes it does but given the situation stated by the poster, I stand by my statement.
I prefer to use common sense and my survival instincts rather than have to rely on an attorney and a jury..........
Retain council BEFORE you have to pull your gun. A small retainer will stop all questioning of you except your name and your carry license. Keep your mouth shut except to identify yourself and say your lawyer said not to say anything without him there.
Also be the first to call the cops. The first person to call 9-1-1 is the victim.
Depends if there are any of their bystanders outside viewing and if alcohol is involved.
‘Bravado and kill whitey’ spur action that is illogical. You’re talking CQ here and it has to be F&F sustained or you go down.
First of all, you will probably already know a riot is imminent. I actually think the shopowners will be the ones with the guns, but not until a few places burn will they come out. You still get a riot, it just doesn’t spread quite as far.
Look there’s a reason there have been no unstopped riots after sporting events here in Texas. I have been in 3 major cities here HOU, SAT & DFW in major areas with lots of people of mixed races immediately after winning & losing major events. There’s been some trouble now & then with individual small groups. But no rioting as in other states.
Recently with the influx of outsiders moving here. My husband has had an occasion to warn rowdy or rude young men of various sorts that this is Texas and you don’t want to treat people that way because you never know who’s carrying a gun. You see their demeanor change when that realization hits them. Not in a threatening just a warning only once has he had to say more.
Just knowing people will defend themselves usually will deter actions. My father was a cop he told me you don’t want to specifically draw attention to yourself but always be alert & ready to protect yourself & others. Your mind is your best weapon.
Ok
Right! Plus even if you get No Billed you WILL face a civil suit.
An armed society is a polite society.
Learn to couple the word “reasonable” with “fear.” It has an important legal meaning.
“I had a reasonable fear for my life and the lives and bodily safety of my family, officer.”
The word means that someone else, put in your situation, with the information and circumstances you had AT THAT MOMENT, would have reached the same conclusion you did AT THAT MOMENT, ie that your life was in danger.
This is as opposed to “stark fear,” which is an unconsidered evaluation and automatic reaction.
Remember that. Lawyers from whom I’ve taken self-defense courses pounded this point into the class’ heads. Here is yet another case of this legal notion, that jurors (and other people) placed into your shoes, with the facts you had AT THAT MOMENT, would have concluded that their lives were in danger:
http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2009/07/harold_fish_con.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pcVDmX4ho4
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