Posted on 03/18/2010 12:01:27 PM PDT by anotherview
Would Muslims surrender Mecca? Should Catholics give up the Vatican? These may seem like ridiculous questions. The answer to both by any sane person would be "of course not." Why on earth would the answer to "Would Jews ever surrender Jerusalem?" be any different? The answer is simple. It shouldn't.
With the exception of a seven year period in the sixth century when the Persians restored Jewish sovereignty, the Jewish people were denied a homeland from 70 C.E. until 1948. During that time the Jewish people suffered pogroms, expulsions, mass murder, persecution, and assorted other forms of denial of basic human rights. Throughout that time the Jewish people prayed for one thing consistently: "Next year in Jerusalem." It's part of the Passover seder, the ceremonial feast, which the world's Jewish population will celebrate in two weeks time.
Hatikvah, the Israeli national anthem, is a Zionist prayer in song, a prayer for a Jewish home in the land of Zion and Jerusalem. Jerusalem is stressed and is in the refrain, the only part of the anthem which is repeated. Here is a translation of the lyrics:
As long as in the heart, within,These words, taken from a poem and set to music in 1888, are the essence of Zionism. More, they are the essence of Jewish national and cultural identity.
A Jewish soul still yearns,
And onward, towards the ends of the east,
An eye still gazes toward Zion;
Our hope is not yet lost,
The hope of two thousand years,
To be a free people in our land,
The land of Zion and Jerusalem.
In recent days some have said that Prime Minister Netanyahu, and indeed the nation of Israel as a whole, will eventually have to make a choice between concessions which amount to surrendering sovereignty over much of Jerusalem or the friendship between Israel and the United States. Actually, that is no choice at all. Jews simply will not surrender sovereignty over Jerusalem. Those, particularly in the United States, who argue that we should include Jews who have somehow become divorced from their traditions, culture, their very identity as Jews. If we have to say goodbye to those people and say goodbye to support from the White House then that is what we will do.
Notice that I have made this argument without even once referring to Jewish and Christian religious beliefs. Of course it is religion which makes Jerusalem holy to Jews, just as Mecca is holy to Muslims and the Vatican is holy to Catholics. These beliefs, which the majority of Americans happen to share, are also being challenged by the White House. That has never been a recipe for much political support.
During Israel's 1948-49 War of Independence my father fought to lift the siege of Jerusalem. To him a Jewish state and the city of Jerusalem was worth fighting for. I can't say my views are any different. Israel survived against what seemed like impossible odds without any American help then. If need be it will do so again.
Anyone who insists that Israel should offer sovereignty as a concession prior to any negotiations for peace, with nothing in return, is asking Israel to surrender. What is the point of a Jewish state if not to maintain Jewish identity and hold on to what is precious to the Jewish people? Anyone who demands such a thing is no friend of Israel or the Jewish people, even if they can claim to be Jewish by birth. Oh, and yes, that includes the Obama Administration and anyone within the administration who insists that Israel not build in Ramat Shlomo or anywhere else in our holy city and capital.
ROFL
I notice that you did not try to defend the fact as I presented it, did you?
No hatred of Jews and I do believe that Arabs are inherently evil and vicious, actually animalistic in thought because they have not advanced in the societal world/society.....remained in the 12th Century somewhere or even further back than that.
I unemotionally look at history and form opinions.
Nothing more.
Drawing parallels between Israel/Mexico is impossible and I do believe that you are well aware of that. You just like to argue indefensible positions, it seems.
With that thought in mind, please defend and/or justify Jews starting a war in 1948 and stealing land from Palestinians then calling it their “country” and naming it “Israel”. Did that happen or did it not happen?
Drawing the parallel is not impossible. I just did it. Wow I performed what you called impossible. Maybe the word doesn't mean what you think it means.
Now you tell me why the comparison isn't applicable, if you can.
Obviously you cannot.
The examples are word for word applicable, and only your “its impossible” stands as any sort of “reason” why the comparison isn't apt.
There is no defense needed to the “fact” that Israel won against its opponents and when you win, you win; when you lose you lose.
I understand that as a loser, you might have sympathy for other losers; is that your guiding principle then?
Do you have a principle, or do you just like accusing Israel of theft.
Why would Israel taking land in war be “stealing”, but not the USA talking land in war?
Lacking any guiding principle to your accusation, or any consistency in its application; I can only surmise that your “unemotional” opinion is based on thinking there is SOMETHING different about Israel that makes them taking land in war “stealing” but not anyone else.
What is that something that is different about Israel?
You are an emotional person. :-)
You keep wanting me to compare Mexico to Israel. I have hesitated to do so but you keep insisting so that I'll have to embarrass you once again.
I can answer you specifically about Texas because that is where I live:
There were Texans living in Texas which was at the time a "territory" under the control of Mexico. Texans, NOT U.S. citizens NOR was Texas a state of the U.S.A. at the time, revolted against a repressive Mexican government to seek their independence from the Mexican government. They won their independence and became an autonomous "territory".
Jews, on the other hand, started a war, not a "revolt" against any repressive government and not for independence from any OTHER government, but to simply land-grab and suddenly call themselves a "country" named "Israel". The land that they grabbed was at the time parts of other countries. Why in the world have both Syria and Egypt tried on several occasions to get their land back? :-)
If you can't see the difference between Texas and Israel then I truly empathize with you.
You're hopeless. You still haven't answered MY question about whether or not Jews started a war and suddenly started calling themselves a "country". Did they or did they not start a war simply to grab land and create a theretofore non-existent "country"? You keep on dodging my question and referring back to your erroreous assumption about Mexico.
I suppose that anyone who holds an opinion that differs from yours is automatically a Jew-hater, huh?
I urge you to read some history books unless you are just too biased to do so. :-)
Very playground of you.
So your contention is that Israel in 1948 Israel simultaneously invaded five neighboring nations?
No, wait a minute. It was Israel that was simultaneously invaded by five neighboring nations.
And after the “Thornton affair” the USA declared war on Mexico. A war that was never even a contest, and a war which furthered President Polk's aim of securing the Southwest as US territory.
Israelis declared their political independence when the British mandate expired. At that point they were invaded by five neighboring nations. They won the war and their independence.
Texans declared their political independence from Mexico. There was conflict between Mexico and Texas. Texas won the war and their independence. Later they joined the USA, conflict was provoked and the USA declared war against a nation that couldn't even beat Texas. We won the war and much of the Southwest right down to the Rio Grand.
You win wars, you win your Independence.
But for some reason it is “stealing” when Israel does it. Why is that?
Considering that Jews don't believe in Jesus, yes, of course we use C.E.
I am amazed how many Christians simply don't understand how different Judaism is from Christianity. I am equally unsurprised when those differences are pointed out how many Christians will turn on Jews, just as they have done for centuries.
Yeah, I know, this is a Christian site. The truth hurts sometimes. I also believe that most American Christians are true friends of Israel.
“the Jewish people were denied a homeland from 3830 until the 5th of Iyyar, 5708”
Fixed it.
Yes, from a Jewish perspective you most certainly did. Israel, officially, is on the Jewish calendar. We only use the Christian calendar for communicating with the rest of the world.
“Considering that Jews don’t believe in Jesus, yes, of course we use C.E. “
Well the Sanhedrin certainly had a part in the death of Jesus. Does using CE sort of sweep that under the rug?
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
“Well the Sanhedrin certainly had a part in the death of Jesus. Does using CE sort of sweep that under the rug?”
AH... the old charge of deicide. Anti-semitism at it’s worst and the basis of centuries of persecution of Jews by Christians. Thank you for making it so clear where you come from.
Let me rephrase: I never said that a man name Jesus (or more likely Yoshua) didn’t live. We don’t believe that he was in any way special or divine. Better?
The argument here is not about anti-semitism. It’s about jewish collusion with humanists. Which, given your beliefs, doesn’t appear to be much of an issue.
Of course what you've written is anti-Semitic. If I'm not a Christian, if I don't accept Jesus as a diety, if I don't want to use a dating system that overtly states the diety of Jesus, then I am guilty of "collusion" with humanists. Would it shock you to learn that 100% of the Israeli media as well as the U.S. Jewish media uses CE/BCE? It's true, you know. HUGE CLUE: 100% of Jewish people don't believe in Jesus. To us it's Christian mythology, nothing more.
Oh, and before someone cites "messianic Jews" I will point out that no stream of Judaism accepts such people as Jewish. To us they are Christians, period.
So, as I stated before, once some Christians (a small but vocal minority) discover that Jewish belief isn't the same as Christian belief, they turn on us. That makes you precisely as tolerant towards Judaism as the fundamentalist Muslim. The only difference is that you probably won't try to kill me and the Islamist will. I guess that's worth something.
I still believe the minority of American Christians are tolerant enough to be true friends of Israel and the Jewish people. It seems I've found a couple of exceptions to that rule.
“That makes you precisely as tolerant towards Judaism as the fundamentalist Muslim. The only difference is that you probably won’t try to kill me and the Islamist will.”
I have two good friends that are jewish. They have told me there are jews who have a persecution complex and play the victim card at the slightest issue. I now believe them.
“It’s about jewish collusion with humanists.”
Jewish people (in Israel, no less) refusing to adopt what they consider heresy is “collusion with humanists”?
Pffft.
I don’t get my panties in a wad when Christians use AD or BC or whatever. That’s between Christians and G-d.
I would expect the same respect from Christians to Jewish people.
Perhaps I am deluded.
“I don’t get my panties in a wad when Christians use AD or BC or whatever.”
Thanks for that. What a relif. Some certainly do get rather wadded up..
The only people I have ever seen get upset are those who protest BCE or CE.
Protest WE or BWE while you are at it. (Western Era or Before Western Era, used in Russia, China, Japan, etc.)
“Jewish people (in Israel, no less) refusing to adopt what they consider heresy is “collusion with humanists”?”
Why did they wait for humanists to change it?
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Israel as a nation came into being again in 1948.
BC/BCE or WE/BWE has existed as a construct since the League of Nations some 30 years earlier -— which was also when the Gregorian Calendar was decided to be used worldwide as a secular calendar.
Yepper, at least for Modern Times...I would proffer that the Jewish people did, for some/long time, in the past, rule that area as a nation/tribe....As the Redman in the USA---COULD say--- We,the tribes of redmen as you call us, ruled this country
Sorry I missed your post. On Friday night, Saturday and Saturday night I am a DJ in the FReeper Canteen and get around 500 posts per weekend that usually start around 8 PM my time on Friday night.
Now.....
“But for some reason it is “stealing” when Israel does it. Why is that?”
Because the “territory” of Texas was already a bonafied “territory” with a name.
There simply was no “Israel”. It was created by Jews from land that was not previously “Israel”.
As I said in the previous post, if you cannot see the difference then I truly empathize with you. :-)
And if they changed the name from what Mexico called it, THEN it would be illegitimate?
Because of the name change?
Hardly a matter of earthshaking import.
If Israel had called their new homeland “Palestine”, THEN it wouldn't have been “stealing”?
Ludicrous, but I suppose a bigot will cling to any justification, no matter how far fetched, to support their prejudice.
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