Posted on 09/01/2009 7:50:02 AM PDT by Alaphiah123
Obama’s name was changed when he was adopted, he also lost his citizenship at that time. He has the right to reinstate his citizenship before his 21st birthday, and reassert his allegiance to America, there is no evidence he did so. His Name was changed in Indonesia, there is not evidence that he did a legal name change BACK to Barak Hussien Obama II on record. So it becomes an Alias. AKA’s are applied for in business. As a state senator in Illinois he used an Alias, In school witnesses say he was known as Barry Soetero. A friend was with him when he decided to change his name at Harvard. He just changed it one day. So he has committed Fraud in College, In the Illinois Senate, in the US Senate, and in the Presidency...or so its believed. But your right, as long as the records are sealed, we don’t know for sure, and the courts can’t seem to decide who has standing, and how you get it...to their satisfaction...
Something is fishy around here...
Yep, Yes, Yes and Yes.
B.S. is full of BS.
According to what law?
His Name was changed in Indonesia, there is not evidence that he did a legal name change BACK to Barak Hussien Obama II on record.
And what would he have to go through to do that? What's the process?
Something is fishy around here...
Sure is.
They are re-making the 80’s TV series “V”.
Probably to acclimate everyone to the idea of reptilian overlords...
So this could still happen...
I keep reading claims that BHO lost his US citizenship by some actions of his parent.
As I understand it, that’s not how it works. A parent cannot, in any way remounce the US citizenship of a child.
US law on this seems pretty clear.
From: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1481.html
§ 1481. Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions
(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
(A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
(B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or
(4)
(A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or
(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or
(6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality in such form as may be prescribed by, and before such officer as may be designated by, the Attorney General, whenever the United States shall be in a state of war and the Attorney General shall approve such renunciation as not contrary to the interests of national defense; or
(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.
(b) Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after September 26, 1961 under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this chapter or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily.
It’s hard work to be POTUS for 57 states.
Back when he became an Indonesian citizen, the US did not allow dual citizenship. As indonesia was a protectorate of Great Britian, they did not as well. So he lost (temporarily) his US citizenship and rights, but, he could before his 21st birthday recover them, interesting, because he was a law student, and eventually a constitutional lawyer, and studied in the US, but, according to all records, never reapplied. Like I said, interesting.
Having a legal name change is required in the United States. People do it every day. But, you cannot just name yourself something and put it on legal documents. As I said, he committed fraud, everywhere he used that name on a legal document, or used it as legal representation. Criminals do it all the time, they are called aliases.
The duly authorized AGENT was Lolo Soetero, as stipulated in the first sentance.
So in fact, you prove that he lost US citizenship when Lolo Soetero and Stanley Ann Dunham were married and adopted him to Indonesian citizenship. the was not dual citizenship allowed. So, even if he were born in Hawaii, he (or his stepfather) relinquished his US citizenship at that time. He had till his 21st birthday to reclaim his citizenship,but apparently did not...
thanks for the proof.
(b) Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after September 26, 1961 under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this chapter or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily.
“MO appears to be political windowdressing”
You mean like little shop of horrors?
The U.S. does allow dual citizenship and has no choice in the matter. We can no more negate another country's citizenship laws than they can negate our's.
As indonesia was a protectorate of Great Britian, they did not as well.
Indonesia gained their freedom from the Netherlands in 1945.
So he lost (temporarily) his US citizenship and rights, but, he could before his 21st birthday recover them, interesting, because he was a law student, and eventually a constitutional lawyer, and studied in the US, but, according to all records, never reapplied. Like I said, interesting.
That's absolute nonsense. When you're born in this country your citizenship is a birthright that cannot be taken from you and cannot be given up on your behalf. Federal law makes it clear that the only way to give up your citizenship is to do so deliberately, and only after you become an adult. You do not lose it temporarily under any circumstances. You're a citizen or you're not, there are no half measures. And the Supreme Court has found that you cannot accidentally give up your citizenship, either. You have to clearly and deliberately relinquish it.
Having a legal name change is required in the United States. People do it every day. But, you cannot just name yourself something and put it on legal documents.
Actually yes you can. A court order is recommended but not required. So long as you aren't doing it to commit fraud then you can call yourself pretty much whatever you want.
you are incorrect, the US did not allow dual citizenship with Indonesia.
It is Mr Benjamin’s considered conclusion that “there is clear prima facie evidence that Senator Barack Hussein Obama has held at least two Citizenships, American and Indonesian.” Dual citizenship is a clearcut cause for ineligibility to run for POTUSA, under Article II of the Constitution.
Additionally, if you examine Obama’s application to the Illinois Bar, he failed to list any previous names. Certainly another cause for suspicions that Barry has been trying to keep his real history secret for years. If he hasn’t actually legally changed his name to Barack Obama, then it may be possible that his candidacy is going to be dismissed, because it is in the wrong name.
Indonesian Connection
Soetoro is the name on Obama’s Birth Certificate (BC) because a new BC was issued when he was adopted by Lolo Soetoro, his step-father. His original BC, which we assume was issued for Barack Hussein Obama at birth, would have been sealed at the time of the adoption.
Barry Soetoro probably acquired Indonesian citizenship in approximately 1965-1966, and may still hold it. He possibly changed his legal name back to Barack Hussein Obama as an older child, teenager, or adult, possibly never did – but even if he did, this procedure would not result in a change to the BC. (If he never legally changed his name back, I imagine his current name on the Presidential ballot would be invalid.)
The Birth Certificate published by Obama on his campaign website (still there, by the way) and distributed to the media was forged because the real BC on file is in the name Soetoro, an identity he apparently wanted to hide from the American people. I am getting reports from different sources that Obama traveled to Pakistan in `81 with an Indonesian passport.
Prior to 2007, Indonesian law did not permit dual citizenship. Thus, if Obama actively kept his Indonesian citizenship, his US citizenship could be challenged. I suspect that Obama may have dumped his Indonesian citizenship at some point along the way, to advance his political career. But I would not be shocked if he still holds it. This question, however, should not overshadow the serious problem of hiding his Indonesian identity from the electorate….. What else is he hiding?
Can you quote the law that prevented it?
It is Mr Benjamin’s considered conclusion that “there is clear prima facie evidence that Senator Barack Hussein Obama has held at least two Citizenships, American and Indonesian.” Dual citizenship is a clearcut cause for ineligibility to run for POTUSA, under Article II of the Constitution.
If Obama enrolled for the first time in January 1968 then he would have been 6 years old. According to Article 2 of the Law of Citizenship in the Republic of Indonesia, adopted in 1958 and in effect at the time - listed here - a foreign child under the age of 5 becomes a citizen automatically upon their approved adoption by an Indonesian national. Otherwise they need to wait until they're 18 and can apply for naturalization. Obama was over 5, so he didn't qualify for automatic citizenship. So it appears that Mr. Benjamin didn't read the law before declaring that Obama must have been an Indonesian citizen.
Dual citizenship is a clearcut cause for ineligibility to run for POTUSA, under Article II of the Constitution.
And of course you can quote the clause of the Constitution or the federal law or the Supreme Court decision that supports that idea as well?
Additionally, if you examine Obama’s application to the Illinois Bar, he failed to list any previous names.
Like what? Barry Soetoro? If I were applying for a law license would I be expected to list any of the nicknames I had as a child?
Since the story broke late Saturday that Barack Obama’s real Birth Certificate, now in Republican hands, has the name Barry Soetoro and not Barack Obama, as we predicted a couple of weeks ago, I notice that many people are still confused about the implications of dual citizenship for Obama. The matter is somewhat complex, so I’ve decided to try to provide a summary, with the help of resident expert “Judah Benjamin.”
The real birth certificate in now in Republican hands? Well that's a new one. Pray tell, when are they planning on releasing it? Or are they going to lock it up in order to avoid a Constitutional crisis? </sarcasm>
Soetoro is the name on Obama’s Birth Certificate (BC) because a new BC was issued when he was adopted by Lolo Soetoro, his step-father. His original BC, which we assume was issued for Barack Hussein Obama at birth, would have been sealed at the time of the adoption.
And why would an Indonesian national conduct an adoption in a U.S. court? And if he did adopt Obama in a U.S. court then how did that make Obama an Indonesian citizen? On the other hand, if the adoption occurred in an Indonesian court then how would that cause the U.S. birth certificate to change? Finally, do you not stop and think about any of the stuff you seem to believe?
Barry Soetoro probably acquired Indonesian citizenship in approximately 1965-1966, and may still hold it.
How is that possible when it appears his mother didn't meet Soetoro until 1966, and probably didn't marry him until 1967? And when they lived in the U.S. until late 1967?
I am getting reports from different sources that Obama traveled to Pakistan in `81 with an Indonesian passport.
I've no doubt that you are. I've noticed that the Birther imagination knows no bounds.
Prior to 2007, Indonesian law did not permit dual citizenship. Thus, if Obama actively kept his Indonesian citizenship, his US citizenship could be challenged.
If that is true then wouldn't it be the Indonesian citizenship that was compromised and not his U.S. one? Obama was born in Hawaii, even that Indonesian school record you all keep waving around states that. As such he was a citizen from birth per the 14th Amendment. Now you can argue natural-born citizen if you want, but you cannot dispute the fact that anyone born in the U.S. is a citizen of some kind. As such that status cannot be taken away from him. If cannot be forfeited by any foreign law. It cannot be given up on his behalf by a parent or guardian. It can only be given up by Obama himself and only when he is an adult. So if Indonesian law didn't allow for dual citizenship, and the law in effect at the time didn't say that, then Obama could not have become an Indonesian citizen because he was already a U.S. citizen. So it was his Indonesian citizenship status that was void, not his U.S. citizenship.
But I would not be shocked if he still holds it.
You have no real evidence he ever held it to begin with.
you are incorrect, the US did not allow dual citizenship with Indonesia.
You might want to actually read that site. Nothing in there talks about a U.S. law that prevents dual citizenship.
In this link you will see that Obama divorced in 1963, and Married Lolo Soetero and moved to Indonesia in 1966-1967, Following his enrollment at the private Assisi school, Obama attended public schooling in Indonesia until he returned to Hawaii at age 10. He was 5. But its not when he started school, its when he was adopted.
And when was he adopted? Soetoro and Obama's mother lived in the U.S. until 1967.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_US_president_have_dual_citizenship
Wikianswers? You are aware that right after the answer that said a person with dual citizenship cannot be president, there is a second answer that says they can? In any event, I asked for the clause in the Constitution, the federal law, or the Supreme Court decision that supported your claim and you offer wikianswers. Birther logic.
I have already supplied a link in this reply that states he was adopted by Lolo Soetero, that is not a nick-name, it is his legal name...c’mon man...don’t you research at all?
You supply a link that states he was adopted. I posted a link that says it wouldn't have made him a citizen. What you don't post is any proof he was adopted. That's the problem with you Birthers, you're great on claims and short on evidence.
That is the birth certificate entered into court records by Orly Taits, which will be heard August 8,2009
Actually no it won't. That forged certificate was tossed out; what they will be hearing Tuesday is a motion to appeal the judges order and to recuse the judge that refused to allow the certificate to be entered. And you accuse me of not doing research.
Each of these answers was readily available on the net. Next time, do your own homework.
But it's so much more fun to watch you try to explain all the holes in your tales. A whole lot of claims. No evidence.
I think I have you figured out N-S, I spent quite a bit of time researching answers to your statements, questions, and lined the all out for you. You next step is to question sites, regardless of their content, or deny its there.
I am quite sure you can google as well as anyone here, and you can also accept or disagree with those findings. I will give you enough information, as I did with the reply to find it yourself, but I won’t do your investigation for you. It is easily found. Do your own homework.
And why is blindly accepting something a good thing? When the content doesn't make sense or is contradicted by something else or is flat out false why should I accept it as gospel just because it's out there in the internet? Or when your site doesn't support what you claim, am I supposed to say "OK"? Sorry, doesn't work that way. You don't believe Obama was born here? Fine. You don't think he's a natural born citizen? Fine. But if you expect people to accept what you say merely because you say it's true then forget it.
Good point, instead of telling me my link is bad, tell me with your investigation where it proves its bad. That way, I know your actually doing some work. I re-read my link, and its there. So either you disagree, or you did not read the link.
Fair enough. Which link would you like to start with?
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