Posted on 07/29/2009 8:00:59 AM PDT by Victory111
Conservative commentators, leaders and thinkers have a responsibility to denounce idiocy put forward under the conservative banner. Republicans and conservatives have a real opportunity to take back the country in 2010 and 2012. But they aren’t going to do it by promoting outlandish conspiracies.
(Excerpt) Read more at crossactionnews.com ...
Where are people arguing about this? Where are people turning on politicians and pundits who don't buy it? It ain't in the ranks of the people who voted for him.
This is the best money Obama ever spent.
I do see it as a critical const. question. But when someone produces a COLB, and affidavits from the issuing officials, then there has to be substantial evidence to shift the burden of proof.
I hear things, but I haven’t seen things. Where’s Maya’s alleged phony COLB? Where is a single tangible piece of evidence that the COLB is false?
parsy.
Maybe Einstein is right, and parallel lines meet somewhere way out there, and if I go far enough left I’ll end up in a conservative party. At least no one’s questioning Ralph Nader being an American.
parsy, who is waiting for the details
And, I'm telling you again, that the alleged COLB does not constitute "legal proof" of anything.
Most importantly, what you and everyone else has seen is a jpeg image on a computer screen. You have NOT seen Barack Obama's actual COLB, and neither has anyone else, especially competent document examiners.
(Annenberg) FactCheck.org are the only people who were allowed to handle and photograph a document purported to be Barack Obama's Certification of Live Birth. That organization is not qualified to judge the authenticity of any legal document, and in fact, is left-wing a partisan group, posing as an "unbiased" and "non-partisan" fact checking organization.
If you'd bothered to compare the photographs of the alleged COLB to the jpeg image of the same, posted by the Obama campaign, you would have noted a long list of inconsistencies between them.
The Certification of Live Birth is insufficient proof of US citizenship, because one could be obtained by anyone, for any child, whether born in the US or not, at the time of Barack Obama's birth.
Forget the alleged COLB. Even if it turned out to be 100% legitimate, it does not constitute evidence of US citizenship. Only the original, long form birth certificate can do that.
...if there is any real tangible evidence I would love to see it.
I thought you just told us that you've already seen Obama's COLB, and that it's "legal proof"?
Get off it. You're not interested in seeing any valid documentation of Obama's citizenship. That is clear by all of your posts on this subject.
If after two years a legitimate birth certificate is released then I will be satisfied he was born in Hawaii. However, the only way that will happen is if concerned citizens keep up the pressure demanding its release.
It's jaw-dropping. Some of the most vocal anti-bc posters on this forum seem to have only just now been introduced to the subject.
What's even more astounding, is that some of them have been posting here for years and years. How did these people miss all of the thousands of posts on this subject?
Maybe they didn't miss anything, and they're just doing the job they were hired to do.
“Forget the alleged COLB. Even if it turned out to be 100% legitimate, it does not constitute evidence of US citizenship. Only the original, long form birth certificate can do that.”
This is what I’m talking about. Where does this pronouncement come from, that he has to show a “long form”???? From what I can tell, out of the blue.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
parsy.
Those asking for a birth certificate would look very reasonable if that were true. The COLB says "this copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding," and Hawaii calls the COLB their "short form birth certificate." It has the State Department requirements of seal and signature. This makes it very difficult to declare it's not legal proof of birthplace.
“It is understandable that after such an apparently definitive statement most news outlets, whether conservative or liberal, would accept this as sufficient grounds to relegate the controversy to the status of a fringe phenomenon. Unless they happened to take the trouble to look into the “state policies and procedures” as laid down by the relevant statutes. If they had done so, they would have seen that Dr. Fukino’s press release was carefully hedged and “lawyered” and practically worthless. But the media in general should not be faulted. The statement seems to roll out with such bureaucratic certainty and final authority. I believed it to be significant until a Honolulu attorney mailed me the relevant statutes. I was so surprised that I laughed out loud”
One ‘Cliff Notes’ version of the in depth post is at:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2303258/posts?page=41#41
I think many are trusting these officials too much - think Chicago.
I tried to track down “Maya has a COLB” some time ago. It apparently came from Techdude, who has been discredited. When I tried to find any other source, I found only one site with a link - to a celebrity gossip site that listed Maya Soetero among those born in Honolulu.
Here is link to the shifting burden of proof definition. Go to the link and space down some, although the first items discussed are relevant also.
I went to your link, and actually tried to read the long article a day or two ago and got too sleepy. I’ll try again.
But here’s the problem. The fact that something “can” be done or “could” have been done, or even “might” have been done is not proof of anything. When BO presents a document, that is valid on its face, and supported by affidavits, (which may not be perfect but are evidence), then the naysayers have to come forward with something more in the way of proof.
I think I read somewhere that an old lady in Kenya said he was born there, and an affidavit from her is indeed evidence. Now that evidence gets “weighed” in a legal setting against the other evidence. IMHO, the naysayer’s evidence is not yet substantial enough to shift the burden back to BO.
So, what tangible “evidence” is there? I don’t believe the birther stuff, but I am more than willing to reconsider if I am presented substantial evidence.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Shifting+the+Burden+of+Proof
parsy.
Concur.
I’d expect it from politicians and pundits.
But FReepers?! My beeber is stuned!
Post 24 lays it out. You miss the core issue. Do those affidavits specifically state that he is a Natural Born Citizen? If not, why not?
Because, “natural born citizen” is more of a legal “conclusion”. All they are attesting to is his place of birth. Technically, affidavits are there to recite facts, not just make conclusory statements. In fact, if all an affidavit does is cite conclusory facts, it can be dismissed as “evidence.”
parsy.
Parsifal, just who do you think you're fooling with these juvenile questions? Can you really, honestly be so far out of the loop on this issue as to not understand even the most basic elements of the controversy?
I really don't think you're so uneducated as that, and posit that you're attempting to undermine the will of good Americans to get at the truth, by posting these (seemingly) uninformed arguments.
I’m being serious. When I am fooling around, you will know it.
Its not that there aren’t questions. Its more to me that there really aren’t any GOOD questions. Obama provides a COLB. It don’t make some people happy.
Is there a long form.? Probably. Is he under any incentive to produce it? Not unless it becomes a major problem to him. Frankly, right now the birther issue is helping him. The fact that he refuses to release it is proof of nothing except that he refuses to release it.
There might be something bad in it. There might not. Maybe he’s just f*cking with the birthers. Who knows.
Thats my point. What “evidence” (not what “questions”) does any birther have that mitigates in favor of him releasing a long form?
parsy.
I thought of a better way to approach this problem.
You’re driving down the road and you get stopped for speeding. Cop asks for license, registration, and proof of insurance.
You give him all three, but the proof of insurance is a little card from your insurance agent.
But cop isn’t satisfied. He wants to see the check where you paid the insurance company. He wants to know if insurance is still in effect or been cancelled.
You respond. The law says I have to provide proof of insurance and I have done so. If you’re not happy with that Mr. Policeman, write me a ticket for no insurance.
Cop says, I don’t know that you have no insurance. I can’t write you a ticket for that. I am just not sure you have insurance.
So you tell him to call your agent. You don’t have to. But you don’t want a suspicious cop out there wanting to get back at you. He calls your agent and the agent says youare covered.
Cop still isn’t happy. Insurance agents can lie. So cop wants a copy of the policy. And a copy of the check. And he double checks your vin#. And he wants the insurance company to verify that the check was for car insurance and not house insurance. And then the cop want to check your bank statement to make sure check didn’t bounce. Or that a refund wasn’t given you. Then he wants....
This to me is the birther movement. You got a COLB. You got an affidavit. I swear if you got the long form, there would be people that didn’t satisfy for one reason or another. And you know, there might actually be something to it all.
I have actually known people who have used fake proof of insurance forms, and cancelled coverage after getting coverage, and who made up documents to get into bars when they are 18, not 21. I actually know a person who 12 years ago who faked a foreign drivers license for a girl to go out drinking with him.
BUT, heres the point. What is it outside of suspicion that makes a birther want more? What tangible thing is there?
parsy.
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