Posted on 07/29/2009 8:00:59 AM PDT by Victory111
Conservative commentators, leaders and thinkers have a responsibility to denounce idiocy put forward under the conservative banner. Republicans and conservatives have a real opportunity to take back the country in 2010 and 2012. But they aren’t going to do it by promoting outlandish conspiracies.
(Excerpt) Read more at crossactionnews.com ...
I agree. The birth announcements are not dispositive proof in and of themselves.
parsy.
Thank you. Not much chance of convincing any of the anti-birther conservative pundits to read it, though. Their minds are made up, for whatever reason, and locked down tight.
That was a good analogy you posted, but here's the difference between that analogy, and what's transpired in the Obama Certifigate case...
Obama and McCain are both cruising up the Presidential Highway when they come to a police checkpoint. They stop, and both are asked to produce their driver's license, registration, and proof of insurance.
McCain gets out his docs and hands them to the officer who looks them over. He then hands them to his superior who does the same. They both agree that everything's in order and wave Mr. McCain through the checkpoint.
Obama then hands the officer his docs. The officer looks them over and frowns at the insurance card. He passes the docs to his superior, and they have a little discussion.
The officer returns to Mr. Obama and says, "Sir, this card you gave me isn't proof of insurance. It's a quote from an insurance company. I'm afraid I need to see your actual proof of insurance." At this point, the passengers in Obama's car become irate and begin hurling nasty epithets and invective at the officer. They make a huge scene, and put the officer on edge.
The officer turns to his superior, who says he wants to see the real insurance card. The officer turns to Obama, but Obama just looks at him and says nothing. Obama's friends insist that the officer has all the proof of insurance he needs, and demand that the officer stop asking ridiculous questions, and allow Mr. Obama to proceed.
Instead of enforcing the law, the officer relents to the pressure from Mr. Obama's friends, and allows them to pass through the checkpoint.
After he's let them through, his superior (the American people), reads the riot act to the officer, and tells him to hop on his motorcycle and catch up with Obama to get his actual proof of insurance.
This is your analogy from the Birther viewpoint.
“At this point, the passengers in Obama’s car become irate and begin hurling nasty epithets and invective at the officer. They make a huge scene, and put the officer on edge.
The officer turns to his superior, who says he wants to see the real insurance card. “
All analogies break down at some point but here is what I see as the critical difference. When BO was asked, he posted the COLB. It is a document that is not related just tangentially to the issue, such as the insurance quote. It is in and of iself a valid document that answers the question.
If BO had tried to pass off his kindergarten pictures, I might be more open to the issue. But this is a document that proves live birth in Hawaii on its face.
You have to question the authenticity of the COLB to have an issue. If BO’s sister had a fake one, that would be relevant. If there was some really good evidence that he was born in Kenya or Indonesia or whatever, that would be relevant.
All I have seen is one old woman in Kenya and some questions.
parsy.
The point I was attempting to make with my analogy, is that the COLB which was presented by the Obama campaign is not proof of his actual birth circumstances. The short form COLB isn't even accepted by the state of Hawaii as proof of Hawaiian citizenship, and is not accepted by the US State Department and other US gov't agencies as proof of citizenship.
In other words, it doesn't actually prove anything. To use a different analogy, it's little more than a note from Mom, when what is required is an official doctor's report.
It's also been shown (beyond a shadow of doubt) that the jpeg image of Obama's COLB is also an amateurish fake. Even if it's authenticity were not at issue, it would be foolish to accept it as proof positive in this digital age. The document in question was never shown to, nor was it inspected by any expert document examiners, a court of law, or the US Congress. It wasn't even allowed to be photographed by the media.
Given those circumstances, it's surprising to many people that anyone would accept what the Obama campaign offered, as "proof" of his citizenship.
You've commented before that you accept the jpeg computer image of Obama's alleged COLB as proof positive of his citizenship. You've also stated that you accept the jpeg computer image of his newspaper birth announcement on its face, and without prejudice. And, you've stated that you accept the word of the Hawaiian health department officials that Barack Obama is a natural born US citizen.
What I'm trying to get you to see, is that this standard of evidence is beneath credibility. None of those things that you accept would sway a judge or jury in any court of law.
I'm afraid that this is where you err, and it is basic to your failure to understand the controversy.
I know that you're familiar with the term, "probable cause". No one suspected Barack Obama of a thing, until he failed to produce his long form birth certificate. McCain and Obama both, were asked for this simple proof of citizenship, yet only McCain complied without delay, and without obfuscation.
This act on Mr. Obama's part, is what caused the controversy in the first place. When he finally did produce something, it was a jpeg computer image, published to a website - not the hard copy document that had been requested of him. This only caused people to suspect that he was evading full disclosure for some reason.
After seeing the public reaction to the publication of this "document", the Obama campaign did NOT do what any other US Presidential campaign would have done, which is to immediately release his original long form birth certificate.
No. Instead, they invited a left-wing partisan "fact checking" organization to their offices to inspect and photograph a piece of paper that the campaign claimed was the actual COLB. Again - no release of any hard copy document for public inspection.
This is the point where the "Birther" movement actually took off. Too many Americans realized that something was terribly wrong with the picture. The Obama camp was far past the point where any legitimate candidate for the Presidency of the United States would have terminatedly handled such an embarrassment by releasing the root documents in question.
He had to be stalling and evading for some reason. And, that reason could not be good, or easily explained. Herein lies the "probable cause" that is driving this entire issue.
A man who has been elected to the most powerful position of authority on the planet, and who refuses to open the records to his past - records that any other candidate would freely produce, is suspect in the extreme.
No amount of smoke and mirrors, or tortured twists of reasoning can explain away the fact that Mr. Obama has withheld simple documentation that would ordinarily be freely offered by anyone in his position, if asked by the American people to do so.
If you don't see that other people can be lying, things can get pretty idiotic. Some of the people involved here don't have very much credibility either: Ron McRae for example, or the person who "proved" that Obama's sister's name was on the COLB posted on line. If you're only out to get Obama and don't see that some people on the same side may not be truthful either, you can come to some bad conclusions.
So what you are saying is, we want him to release the long form, because he doesn’t want to release the long form. The more he doesn’t release the long form, the more we want him to. The more we want him to, the more he doesn’t.
IMHO, not much of an issue.
parsy.
In law, this is called best evidence. Our we not entitled to see the best evidence that our president is not a fraud?
Are we also.
Not unless the State of Hawaii is a party. If suing BO, one could get a release of records waiver thru discovery, maybe, but it could also be subject to a protective order.
Again, the point is, you have presented no evidence sufficient to rebut the document which has been presented.
What you have are questions and an old woman in Kenya. (You do have an old woman in Kenya, don’t you?)
parsy.
Where's the documented proof on this one? I'm looking for it. Thanks.
There are cases in court to fight for the discopvery.
I am addressing what the president should do ethically and morally. When he called Hawaii and asked them to release the narrow statement, he still has not responded to the requests of the voters and citizens of the US.
My position is that until the best evidence is released he's a fraud, liar, untrustworthy, and is wasting the time of several courts and attorneys, not to mention campaign funds.
Most Americans assume he is legal. The COLB is enough for us. It is the birthers who keep the issue alive.
And, I want to be clear here. If there were any legitimate issues or problems, I would be one of you. I am open minded and if you birthers present something substantial, I am willing to change my mind. I would prefer Biden to Obama.
But all I have seen are questions (suspicions) and an old woman in Kenya. (?)
parsy.
What are you? Some sort of Alinksyite trying to stir the pot? You know exactly what I'm talking about.
We want Obama to produce the truth. Nothing more - nothing less. That truth is on his long form birth certificate, not the jpeg his campaign released.
The longer he refuses to release it, the more suspect he is of hiding damaging, and possibly disqualifying information, and the more this issue will ratchet up in tension.
IMHO, not much of an issue.
Then you are obviously wasting your time discussing this with people who are passionate about the subject. But, perhaps you don't feel that you're wasting your time. Maybe you think that you're making a "difference" of some sort here.
What exactly is your motivation for dumping your naysaying views on every bc thread?
Most Americans take the lies told by politicians, roll over and vote for them again. I am not "most" Americans.
“Maybe you think that you’re making a “difference” of some sort here.”
H*ll, I’m trying! I don’t dump on every BC thread. I ignore most of them. And again, I am very open minded about the issue. Show me something substantial, and I’ll put on my tin-foil lined floppy eared hat and join right in with you.
Ya’ll said his sister had a fake Hawaiian BC, so I went looking for it on the web. That would have proved interesting and relevant. Couldn’t find it. Nobody seems to have it.
I looked at the BC on line and even one where the site was folding it so you could see the raised seal.
I assure you I am Zen enough that I have no ego in this. If I am wrong, I want to know it. I just ain’t seen anything yet except:
questions and suspicions about the COLB-—and an old woman in Kenya (whom I am assuming exists and said what she was supposed to have said.)
parsy.
Parsy, I suggest that you simply read through a lot of these bc threads without commenting for a while, if you want to gain a real understanding of why this is such an issue for most of us.
Just follow the commentary, and digest the logic, the reasoning, and the arguments for compelling Obama to release this most basic information. The answers you seek are there, in well-reasoned arguments, and also in facts.
Trust me, it's not about sour grapes. It's not the heavy breathings of a lunatic fringe. It's not even about the well-grounded fears of Obama's unquestionable Marxist leanings that are at the center of this.
It's about our adherence to one of the most basic Constitutional proscriptions and concepts. All we're asking Obama to do is to put our minds at ease. He has the power to do this, yet he will not. What sort of President does such a thing to his people? It's unconscionable.
Go back to Watergate. If you understood the public's need to know about that issue, then you can understand our need to know about this one. And, this issue has the potential to be of far greater significance than anything Richard Nixon was guilty of.
That O so adamantly refuses the simple task of showing the long form original. It's powerfully simple. What does our POTUS/CiC hide? He himself creates greater suspicion.
From a mother known on campus for her ability to fiercely debate in favor of Marxism.
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