Posted on 06/10/2007 7:24:29 PM PDT by Reaganesque
Sally Denton uses today's Los Angeles Times op-ed page as a launching pad for the movie based on her book, "American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857," and as a means to propagate more anti-Mormon bigotry at the expense of Mitt Romney. Denton insists that Romney has to respond about the nature of his faith if he expects to win the nomination for the Presidency -- and uses a lot of 19th-century examples to "prove" her case:
MITT ROMNEY'S Mormonism threatens his presidential candidacy in the same way that John F. Kennedy's Catholicism did when he ran for president in 1960. Overt and covert references to Romney's religion — subtle whispering as well as unabashed inquiries about the controversial sect he belongs to — plague his campaign. None of his responses so far have silenced the skeptics.
Recent polls indicate that from 25% to 35% of registered voters have said they would not consider voting for a Mormon for president, and conventional wisdom from the pundits suggests that Romney's biggest hurdle is his faith. Everyone seems eager to make his Mormonism an issue, from blue state secularists to red state evangelicals who view the religion as a non-Christian cult.
All of which raises the question: Are we religious bigots if we refuse to vote for a believing Mormon? Or is it perfectly sensible and responsible to be suspicious of a candidate whose creed seems outside the mainstream or tinged with fanaticism?
Ironically, Romney is the only candidate in the race (from either party) who has expressed discomfort with the idea of religion infecting the national dialogue. While his GOP rivals have been pandering to the evangelical arm of the party, Romney actually committed himself (during the first Republican debate) to the inviolable separation of church and state.
First, Denton is hardly an unbiased pundit in this regard. She's flogging a book and a movie about an atrocity committed by Mormons 150 years ago. For Denton, 1857 is relevant to 2007, but for most Americans. The suggestion that Romney needs to answer for Brigham Young would be as silly as saying that Democrats have to answer for Stephen Douglas or that Lutherans today have to answer for the anti-Semitic rants of Martin Luther.
Denton first off would have people believe that all Mormons are "tinged with fanaticism," but does nothing to advance that case. She discusses the beginnings of their church in great detail, but her history lessons appear to end at 1857. In the only mentions of any connection to the present, she uses the HBO series Big Love and Warren Jeffs, neither of which has any connection to the modern Mormon church or to Romney's faith. Both the fictional account in Big Love and the unfortunately non-fiction and despicable Jeffs involve polygamist cults -- and in the TV series, are showed as in mortal opposition to the Mormons.
Denton includes this helpful instruction at the half-way point:
It's not a church's eccentric past that makes a candidate's religion relevant today, but its contemporary doctrines. (And it's worth noting that polygamy and blood atonement, among other practices, are no longer condoned by the official Mormon church hierarchy.)
So what contemporary doctrines does Romney need to explain? Denton never says. Instead, she spends her time writing about how Joseph Smith once declared his intention to run for President -- in 1844. She discusses how John C. Fremont's candidacy died on the rumor that he was Catholic -- in 1856. She mentions 1960, in which John Kennedy dealt with anti-Catholic bigotry, but only barely notes that he prevailed over it -- and that was almost 50 years ago.
Denton then frames the question that she feels Romney has to answer:
Do you, like the prophet you follow, believe in a theocratic nation state? All the rest is pyrotechnics.
Unfortunately for Denton, Romney has answered this question every time it gets asked. And somewhat incoherently, Denton appears to forget that she herself acknowledges this near the beginning of the column:
While his GOP rivals have been pandering to the evangelical arm of the party, Romney actually committed himself (during the first Republican debate) to the inviolable separation of church and state.
Romney has no need to enter into the field of religious apologetics in his campaign for the presidency, no more than does Harry Reid in order to run the Senate. He certainly has no guilt to expiate on behalf of a massacre committed almost a century before his birth, and for people like Warren Jeffs who do not have any connection to the Mormon church. In other words, Denton has taken up space at the LA Times to exercise her bigotry and to not-so-coincidentally sell a few books and movie tickets. She and the LA Times should be ashamed.
UPDATE: One commenter suggests that people opposed Keith Ellison on the basis of his religion. Er, not quite. We opposed him on the basis of his association with the notoriously anti-Semitic group Nation of Islam and its leader, Louis Farrakhan, and his association with CAIR, which has supported terrorist groups like Hamas. If Romney had spoken at Warren Jeffs' compound for political donations, then the analogy would be apt. Ellison's problem isn't his religion but the company he keeps, politically, a fact that he and his apologists like to wrap in a false cloak of religious antagonism.
Ping for help with research regarding the Popes wrtiing themselves into Torah.
Ah! You have the CORRECT lyrics!!
Way back in the '90's, I went to a high school production of WSS and was jarred when I heard this:
...
I feel pretty and witty and BRIGHT
And I pity
Any girl who isn't me TONIGHT...
Since WSS is one of my favorites, it was extremely telling that the words had been changed to 'protect' sensitive ears.
I don't know for sure, but if they tried this today, the Homo community would be up in arms, protesting and being really obnoxious!!
(And that would just be the school's Glee Gay Club!!!)
Interesting tagline verse...
Quit posting these historical facts!! (1-6)
You’ll get people starting to doubt our great and glorious forefathers who have handed us such wonderful, sacred rites!
—MormonDude
Mogen David, Manischewitz... good stuff.
And what is another famous Jewish wine?
“When are we goin’ to Miami this year?”
Read about the Council of Jerusalem in Acts.
Read about Jesus Christ giving the keys of the kingdom to Peter.
Read about Jesus telling Peter, “You are a rock and upon this rock I will build my church.”
All in the Bible, but not in the first books.
The Early Church Fathers on The Primacy of Peter/Rome (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
|
Is Peter the 'rock'?
As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'
BEFORE the following verses came along.....
NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
4. and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. NIV Luke 6:48
48. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. NIV Romans 9:33
33. As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
4. As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him-- 5. you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 7. Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, " 8. and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS??? NIV Genesis 49:24-25 24. But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel, 25. because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb. NIV Numbers 20:8
8. "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink." NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
4. He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
15. Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior. NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth. NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
30. How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up? 31. For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede. NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
2. "There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God. NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
2. He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; 3. my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me. NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
32. For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
47. "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior! NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
3. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God, 4. he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.' NIV Psalms 18:2
2. The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. NIV Psalms 18:31
31. For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God? NIV Psalms 18:46
46. The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior! NIV Psalms 19:14
14. May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. NIV Psalms 28:1
1. To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
NIV Psalms 31:2-3
2. Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me. 3. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me. NIV Psalms 42:9
9. I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?" NIV Psalms 62:2
2. He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken. NIV Psalms 62:6
6. He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken. NIV Psalms 62:7
7. My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge. NIV Psalms 71:3
3. Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress. NIV Psalms 78:35
35. They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer. NIV Psalms 89:26
26. He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' NIV Psalms 92:14-15
14. They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green, 15. proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him." NIV Psalms 95:1
1. Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation. NIV Psalms 144:1
1. Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. NIV Isaiah 17:10
10. You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress. NIV Isaiah 26:4
4. Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal. NIV Isaiah 30:29
29. And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel. NIV Isaiah 44:8
8. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." NIV Habakkuk 1:12 12. O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish. |
Degaston, since you were a former member, you know that often the way Joseph Smith received revelation was AFTER learning about something, and then specifically seeking answers about it from God. This holds true with Baptism, the priesthood, Word of Wisdom, etc, etc, etc.
ASK ye shall receive, SEEK and ye shall find, KNOCK it shall be opened unto you.
As far as Masons and "reputable" scholars tracing their heritage back to the medieval, era, there's likely some truth to that, most Masons don't know what they had, although there are many that claim a Solomononetic link, but as far as the specifics of rituals and ordinances of the temple, they can be traced back as far as God has spoken to Man on earth.
Here are a couple excellent treatises on the subject of ancient Temple worship and Masonry. They are among several that I have found that explores the ancient rites of the Temple. I have more if you are truly interested. I hope you will take the time to read this, it's pretty thorough, and gets right to the heart of apparently why you decided the Temple was a Masonic fraud. If you are an earnest seeker of truth, please read these:
I use the King James version, but either way, wither I'm called a heretic or part of a sect, I follow Christ, the God of my fathers as well.
Cheers.
Yes, those evil Masons. It’s too bad that 14 of our former POTUS were Masons as well as Christians, who duped the American electorate.
George Washington would never be fit for office today!
LOL...that is so reassuringly true....
there is only one group that speaks constantly about how good they are, how perfect, how beautiful and rich and married they are.....guess?
It ain’t Mormons either. Sorry to dispel your fantansies.
Yep!
I've seen that handshake when they are sworn in!
How come the TV cameras NEVER zoom in to show the WORLD that handshake CLOSEUP???
Must be something to it!
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPIC,HPIC:2005-18,HPIC:en&q=masonic+oath
ts not Catholics who claim to be perfect,nor Lutherans, nor Methodists, nor Baptists, etc.... fact is, our respective religions teach us that we are sinners, period....Whether anyone claims to be perfect or not does not concern me. It's the killing Jews thing that concerns me. Hence: Catholicism concerns me.
there is only one group that speaks constantly about how good they are, how perfect, how beautiful and rich and married they are.....guess?Democrats?
Thanks for the information. I'll be studying the persons you mention, with an eye to seeing the rewrites in comparison to Joe Smith's rewrite of the Old Testament.My absolute least favourite revisionist of the Tanakh is the detestable Origen, one of the so-called fathers of the church. His singular contribution to the improvement of our species was to emasculate himself with a dusty potsherd, publicly, on the street, after an afternoon in the baths. May his act be for an example to all revisionists, everywhere! His everlasting shame lies in his allegorizing the entire Torah--reducing every narrative, every account--to a foreshadowing or prefiguring of Christ, or as illustrative of Christ's relationship to his Church , or the believer's relationship to the Christan God etc., etc. The Jews were reduced to but bit players, walk-ons, and cameos in their own drama! Joseph Smith never attempted so obscene a re-write of OUR tradition. Not yours: OURS.
Yes, those evil Masons. It’s too bad that 14 of our former POTUS were Masons as well as Christians, who duped the American electorate.Indeed. Funding hospitals. Supporting good works. Eating ribs and drinking beer. Those evil Masons must be of the devil.
Actually I am a current member of the church. In fact I'm a High Priest. I just happen to be a church member who isn't afraid to be honest. I will defend the church when they are honest. And I'll be honest about situations where its obvious that they aren't.
>> you know that often the way Joseph Smith received
>> revelation was AFTER learning about something, and
>> then specifically seeking answers about it from God.
When was Joseph Smith ever given a revelation that he should be justified in committing plagiarism? When has the church ever officially and properly attributed the elements of the Endowment that came from Masonic origins? If they haven't done this then they've committed plagiarism and they're still doing it to this day. Go read the definition on plagiarism from a dictionary and you'll have to agree that this is what it is.
BTW the shields-research.org and fairlds.org are not and have never been official church websites. And considering all the times that some Mormon apologists are so quick to dismiss or ignore a sermon from Brigham Young or some passage in the LDS scriptures or Journal of Discourses or even the Milennial Star or 7-volume History of the Church set that doesn't fit well with their 21st century worldview it's pretty important that when it comes to Mormonism that we get officially sanctioned information on important questions.
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