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Evolution Disclaimer Supported
The Advocate (Baton Rouge) ^ | 12/11/02 | WILL SENTELL

Posted on 12/11/2002 6:28:08 AM PST by A2J

By WILL SENTELL

wsentell@theadvocate.com

Capitol news bureau

High school biology textbooks would include a disclaimer that evolution is only a theory under a change approved Tuesday by a committee of the state's top school board.

If the disclaimer wins final approval, it would apparently make Louisiana just the second state in the nation with such a provision. The other is Alabama, which is the model for the disclaimer backers want in Louisiana.

Alabama approved its policy six or seven years ago after extensive controversy that included questions over the religious overtones of the issue.

The change approved Tuesday requires Louisiana education officials to check on details for getting publishers to add the disclaimer to biology textbooks.

It won approval in the board's Student and School Standards/ Instruction Committee after a sometimes contentious session.

"I don't believe I evolved from some primate," said Jim Stafford, a board member from Monroe. Stafford said evolution should be offered as a theory, not fact.

Whether the proposal will win approval by the full state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education on Thursday is unclear.

Paul Pastorek of New Orleans, president of the board, said he will oppose the addition.

"I am not prepared to go back to the Dark Ages," Pastorek said.

"I don't think state boards should dictate editorial content of school textbooks," he said. "We shouldn't be involved with that."

Donna Contois of Metairie, chairwoman of the committee that approved the change, said afterward she could not say whether it will win approval by the full board.

The disclaimer under consideration says the theory of evolution "still leaves many unanswered questions about the origin of life.

"Study hard and keep an open mind," it says. "Someday you may contribute to the theories of how living things appeared on earth."

Backers say the addition would be inserted in the front of biology textbooks used by students in grades 9-12, possibly next fall.

The issue surfaced when a committee of the board prepared to approve dozens of textbooks used by both public and nonpublic schools. The list was recommended by a separate panel that reviews textbooks every seven years.

A handful of citizens, one armed with a copy of Charles Darwin's "Origin of the Species," complained that biology textbooks used now are one-sided in promoting evolution uncritically and are riddled with factual errors.

"If we give them all the facts to make up their mind, we have educated them," Darrell White of Baton Rouge said of students. "Otherwise we have indoctrinated them."

Darwin wrote that individuals with certain characteristics enjoy an edge over their peers and life forms developed gradually millions of years ago.

Backers bristled at suggestions that they favor the teaching of creationism, which says that life began about 6,000 years ago in a process described in the Bible's Book of Genesis.

White said he is the father of seven children, including a 10th-grader at a public high school in Baton Rouge.

He said he reviewed 21 science textbooks for use by middle and high school students. White called Darwin's book "racist and sexist" and said students are entitled to know more about controversy that swirls around the theory.

"If nothing else, put a disclaimer in the front of the textbooks," White said.

John Oller Jr., a professor at the University of Louisiana-Lafayette, also criticized the accuracy of science textbooks under review. Oller said he was appearing on behalf of the Louisiana Family Forum, a Christian lobbying group.

Oller said the state should force publishers to offer alternatives, correct mistakes in textbooks and fill in gaps in science teachings. "We are talking about major falsehoods that should be addressed," he said.

Linda Johnson of Plaquemine, a member of the board, said she supports the change. Johnson said the new message of evolution "will encourage students to go after the facts."


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: crevolist; evolution; rades
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To: js1138
Rats, I should have included this link to exobiology because it leads to astrobiology. Sorry about that!
4,121 posted on 01/09/2003 8:57:43 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: exmarine
What if the science teacher does not explicitly state "there is no God," but every one of his theories has that underlying implicit assumption? Should he not be fired in that case as well?

Ah, so you don't only have a problem with the Theory of Evolution but with biology and every other branch of science (physics, chemistry, geology, etc.) in general.
Now I'm sorry to disappoint you but no scientific theory needs a deity to explain observed facts and if it did it wouldn't even be one.

As I already stated, many of the pillars of modern-day science (Newton, Kepler, etc.) were able to make their discoveries only becuase God was in the equation.

And yet Laplace made his discoveries although God wasn't in the equation. It is even reported that he said to Napoleon that he didn't need that hypothesis (i.e. God) to explain the orbits of the planets (please note that he didn't say that a god does not exist). Until then many (including Newton) believed that devine intervention was required to keep the planets on course. Laplace demonstrated that this hypothesis was superfluous.

Of course Laplace wasn't the only party pooper who showed that you don't have to invoke the supernatural in order to explain observed phenomena.
Friedrich Woehler for instance was an other one of these party poopers who made the God of the Gaps shrink even more.

Regards

4,122 posted on 01/09/2003 9:00:56 AM PST by BMCDA (Insert random Mencken quote here:__________)
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To: betty boop
No, I absolutely DO NOT want the government involved in religion. And, thanks to the establishment clause, the federal government IS completely "out of the religion business." But the people need not be; and their voluntary "free exercise thereof" is guaranteed by the Constitution.

Not in dispute, and never has been.

All the Constitution requires of the federal government is that it stay completely neutral as to faith confessions: It may not favor one or disfavor another. It does not have a mandate to prohibit religious expression.

'Expression', no. The consitution has a mandate in the 1st clause to pass no laws allowing governments to favor religions, & all the 'establishments' of religion. -- They must be neutral, as you admit.

Again, recall that the religion clause of the First Amendment consists of two phrases. On the surface, they may appear incompatible. But if you think them through, using logic and reason, you will find that they are actually complementary.

Exactly my point, -- Nebullis & I just had an exchange of posts to that effect. - Did you read them?

The USSC's "interpretation" of "separation of church and state" effectively means, translated into actual practice (as we have seen), that the federal government has placed itself in the unconstitutional position of favoring one religion over all other religions. That favored religion is called Secular Humanism.

Not at all. - The original intent of the constitution is being upheld by the supreme court. They are attempting to be neutral. -- You disgree with their judgement, and seem to have difficulty articulating as to why.

4,123 posted on 01/09/2003 9:20:48 AM PST by tpaine
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To: Nebullis
Although, some people will argue that natural selection is simply working on a hierarchical level above that of the genes

Precisely. Count me among them. My point, which I failed to make clear, is that natural selection is far more capable than it is usually given credit for, even to the point of making such apparently teleological changes. However, I don't know whether Wolfram is addressing the inadeaquacy of naive gene-at-a-time variation, or has some other hobgoblin in mind.

4,124 posted on 01/09/2003 9:26:14 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Alamo-Girl
What would be the definition of panova?

Feminist panspermia?

4,125 posted on 01/09/2003 9:33:13 AM PST by js1138
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To: Sentis
st...

How old is the Earth? Its the simple questions that crevos fear the most.


4075 posted on 01/09/2003 3:24 AM PST by Sentis


God isn't obligated to operate according to your dumb // backward // lame thinking - - - mind // time frame . . .

what is choking off anything smart from coming out of your collapsed brain is your big // fat // overblown over estimation of yourself - - - EGO . . .

blocking any brains // Truth from happening ! ! !


God can create an any age universe instantaneously - - -

but the rules aren't going to change much just to keep the death row losers like your self from saying . . .

God is arbitrary // 'tricky' // unfair - - - "railroaded" // "I wasn't told" // "framed" ! ! !
4,126 posted on 01/09/2003 9:36:47 AM PST by f.Christian
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To: exmarine
If the theories he is teaching are based on true science and fact, then no, he should NOT be fired, but if he comes right out and says it, then yes.

If you wish your children to learn about god etc, then you teach them at home. Teaching your religious beliefs is the parents job, not the schools. It is the schools job, in a perfect world that is, which this is not, to NOT interfere in a childs belief system, but I will be the first to admit that schools DO interfere, and they should NOT.

I believe bible clubs, religious organizations should be allowed to practice at schools on a voluntary basis, just as I believe the boy scouts should be allowed etc. I do not believe that they should be allowed to prostletize etc, but they should be allowed to get students of the same faith together so that they may worship or study or whatever they choose to do.

Again, my opinion is this, science belongs in a science class, whether you believe it is anti-theistic or not, I do NOT believe that, because MOST scientists have some sort of belief in the divine. They just don't let it interfere with their work, just as they do not allow it to interfere in their beliefs.

Schools should be secular, I pay for it, it would be offensive to my beliefs if my children were taught that creationism were taught as science, I have my own belief systems, and therefore I will teach my children those beliefs myself. I do NOT want the schools even admitting that there is a god, but I also do NOT want them saying there is NO god either.

It is NONE of the schools business, and that whole pandoras box needs to stay closed. Because, once we admit one, you know that we will have to admit ALL of them. This includes, paganism, which I am, but again, that is NONE of the schools business, devil worship, which I abhor, Islam, which of course is the most troublemaking religion there is at this juncture, Buddhism, which is peaceful, but I don't want my kids meditating in class, Hinduism, I don't want my kids to learn to worship some elephant god, etc, etc ad nauseum. Christianity is one of the most peaceful religions, but I still do not want it taught in school, because there are so MANY different sects, which ones do you let in, if you let in one, you have to let them all in, mormonism?, presbetyrian, how about we invite a Roman Catholic Priest in, not near my son, thank you, sorry, that was a bad joke.

Anyway, I think you understand where I am coming from, this is another reason I homeschool, I don't want my kids involved in such nonsense and debates.

Some of the stuff they are teaching is so far beyond the pale that there is no way I want my kids near it.
4,127 posted on 01/09/2003 9:40:28 AM PST by Aric2000 (The Theory of Evolution is Science, ID and Creationism are Religious, Any Questions?)
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To: Physicist
Along those lines, I wrote a short simulation to test the effects of mutation and selection. (Not part of a project, just a personal thing at home.) I set up an array of individuals (about 50000) each with an array of several (about 5) integers to represent "genes." The "genes" underwent (sometimes biased) Brownian motion by adding or subtracting numbers based on a PRNG. The "phenotype" of an individual was computed (partly randomly) from the gene set. A "fitness" function was applied to the genotypes to give a reproduction rate. Then a new generation is created with Russian Roulette to delete the "less fit."

One result was that choosing a bias to smaller integers for genes in the mutation phase and choosing a fitness as having larger integers in the genes resulted in a population of large genes.

The selection phase seemed to work proportional to time and the muataion phase proportional to the square root of the time. This seems to be the correct orders of magnitude.

4,128 posted on 01/09/2003 9:40:44 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (The cowl does not make a monk.)
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To: js1138
Thank you so much for your post!

No, I haven't heard of anyone suggesting feminist panspermia.

4,129 posted on 01/09/2003 9:45:26 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: tpaine; exmarine; logos
The consitution has a mandate in the 1st clause to pass no laws allowing governments to favor religions, & all the 'establishments' of religion. -- They must be neutral, as you admit.

Government wouldn't be "favoring" a religion by allowing it to have a presence in the public square -- just so long as it treats every other religion in the same way.

This is what we mean by the government being barred from "establishing" a religion -- that is, giving a particular religious confession or "establishment" (if you will) preferential sanction while disfavoring or suppressing all other religious confessions. Government must be "neutral" as to religious confessions; that's not the same thing as saying it must be HOSTILE to ALL of them alike.

tpaine, you wrote, "[USSC] are attempting to be neutral. -- You disgree with their judgement, and seem to have difficulty articulating as to why." I do disagree with their judgment; for it says the only way the government can be "neutral" is by ridding the public square of all religious expression. That doesn't sound like "neutrality" to me. That sounds like open and active hostility to all forms of voluntary public religious expression -- which the second phrase of the religion clause absolutely forbids.

4,130 posted on 01/09/2003 9:50:20 AM PST by betty boop
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To: Aric2000
Homesporing // cloning . . . mushrooming ! ! !
4,131 posted on 01/09/2003 9:55:50 AM PST by f.Christian
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To: tpaine
You disgree with their judgement, and seem to have difficulty articulating as to why.

Yes, exactly!

4,132 posted on 01/09/2003 9:55:58 AM PST by balrog666 (Religion is a product of unscrupulous men.)
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To: Physicist
His argument is that evolution is proceeding at a faster rate than ever before, because the ability to evolve has itself evolved over time.

If you assume that the mind itself evolved, that's some Swiss Army knife.

4,133 posted on 01/09/2003 10:03:47 AM PST by js1138
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To: Physicist
I don't know whether Wolfram is addressing the inadeaquacy of naive gene-at-a-time variation, or has some other hobgoblin in mind.

I have Wolfram's book and have read every indexed reference to evolution. I see no skepticism towards evolution, although he may have doubts about specific assertions of mechanism.

I may just be ignorant or simple-minded, but what he calls automata look to me an awful lot like the rules of chemistry.

4,134 posted on 01/09/2003 10:12:58 AM PST by js1138
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To: Physicist
I'm not as up on Aristotle as I should be, but my suspicion is that his understanding of time and causality is not fully modern.

That's a fact! -- but how could it be, Physicist? Still, he got so much right. Something in his discussion of limit seems analogous to QM's "observer." I'm mulling it over. Maybe I'm mistaken about this, but it's something to think about.

Thanks for your book recommendation. I'll check it out. Also thanks for all your help to me in working through my understanding of QM. Which I'm still working on. :^)

And thanks for writing!

4,135 posted on 01/09/2003 10:19:33 AM PST by betty boop
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To: Junior
Placemarker
4,136 posted on 01/09/2003 10:21:45 AM PST by Junior
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To: Doctor Stochastic
That sounds absolutely fascinating, pretty cool stuff.

But, you are gonna get, "that's ID" from somewhere I am sure, so I will hit you with it instead!! LOL ;)
4,137 posted on 01/09/2003 10:26:08 AM PST by Aric2000 (The Theory of Evolution is Science, ID and Creationism are Religious, Any Questions?)
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To: gore3000
God exists regardless of intellectual fashion. I've been trying to make clear that one can be a rational respecter of science and still devoutly believe in Him and in the miracles of the Bible.
4,138 posted on 01/09/2003 10:28:04 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: Alamo-Girl
And then there's my view, that due to the inflationary model and relativity - and because God is not "in" time, the only observer of creation and the author of Genesis - that both statements are true. The universe is approximately 6000 years old (the Adamic age plus creation week from God's point of view as observer) - and is also approximately 15 billion years old from our space/time coordinates as observer.

A-G, that is brillant. That is very similar to my view although much better articulated.

4,139 posted on 01/09/2003 10:32:51 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: edsheppa; Doctor Stochastic; Nebullis; betty boop
For Lurkers and anyone interested, I’d like to add the following reference to my post to edsheppa at 4009 with regard to links and sources which may help to explain why I say that the genetic code contains algorithms. It is the result of looking further into the link Nebullis provided to betty boop at 4100 which Doctor Stochastic followed-up at 4114.

Looking at Life with Gerard 't Hooft

Today, we are discovering that nature is very mathematical, very methodical, very logical. To me, this is a strong indication that our entire world is ruled completely by mathematical equations and predictions - and not only that, but that humans have the capability to sort it all out; they already have come a long way. It is quite conceivable to suspect that humans will figure out the ultimate equations that are at the basis of everything. Some people attribute it to our extreme arrogance that physicists can even dream of such ideas, but many others of us have this feeling, this impression, that truly fundamental equations may exist - equations that will be universally correct, needing no tampering, no further corrections of any kind, equations that describe how our world is running at the tiniest possible scales and with the most extreme accuracy.

This is, of course, very much a case of feeling and belief at the moment - we can't say anything for sure. But my feeling is that it is quite likely that nature is built extremely logically, with precisely defined laws that can be expressed simply given the right "ingredients". We haven't yet understood at all what these ingredients are, we don't know how to describe the degrees of freedom in nature at this time, or how we should formulate the mathematics. But many of us are trying, each in our own way, to see if we can make further progress, if we can improve our understanding of what is going on.

From the article linked by Nebullis at 4100:

Physicist proposes deeper layer of reality

The key, says 't Hooft, is information loss. At the smallest conceivable size scale - the Planck Scale, many trillions of times smaller than the nucleus of an atom - there exists complete information about the world.

This information gets lost very quickly, 't Hooft explains. By the time we start trying to probe and measure a system, we are like archaeologists trying to make sense of ancient Babylonia: we have only the scantiest of information to go on. We can say only what the system was probably like.


4,140 posted on 01/09/2003 10:40:07 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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