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Evolution Disclaimer Supported
The Advocate (Baton Rouge) ^ | 12/11/02 | WILL SENTELL

Posted on 12/11/2002 6:28:08 AM PST by A2J

By WILL SENTELL

wsentell@theadvocate.com

Capitol news bureau

High school biology textbooks would include a disclaimer that evolution is only a theory under a change approved Tuesday by a committee of the state's top school board.

If the disclaimer wins final approval, it would apparently make Louisiana just the second state in the nation with such a provision. The other is Alabama, which is the model for the disclaimer backers want in Louisiana.

Alabama approved its policy six or seven years ago after extensive controversy that included questions over the religious overtones of the issue.

The change approved Tuesday requires Louisiana education officials to check on details for getting publishers to add the disclaimer to biology textbooks.

It won approval in the board's Student and School Standards/ Instruction Committee after a sometimes contentious session.

"I don't believe I evolved from some primate," said Jim Stafford, a board member from Monroe. Stafford said evolution should be offered as a theory, not fact.

Whether the proposal will win approval by the full state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education on Thursday is unclear.

Paul Pastorek of New Orleans, president of the board, said he will oppose the addition.

"I am not prepared to go back to the Dark Ages," Pastorek said.

"I don't think state boards should dictate editorial content of school textbooks," he said. "We shouldn't be involved with that."

Donna Contois of Metairie, chairwoman of the committee that approved the change, said afterward she could not say whether it will win approval by the full board.

The disclaimer under consideration says the theory of evolution "still leaves many unanswered questions about the origin of life.

"Study hard and keep an open mind," it says. "Someday you may contribute to the theories of how living things appeared on earth."

Backers say the addition would be inserted in the front of biology textbooks used by students in grades 9-12, possibly next fall.

The issue surfaced when a committee of the board prepared to approve dozens of textbooks used by both public and nonpublic schools. The list was recommended by a separate panel that reviews textbooks every seven years.

A handful of citizens, one armed with a copy of Charles Darwin's "Origin of the Species," complained that biology textbooks used now are one-sided in promoting evolution uncritically and are riddled with factual errors.

"If we give them all the facts to make up their mind, we have educated them," Darrell White of Baton Rouge said of students. "Otherwise we have indoctrinated them."

Darwin wrote that individuals with certain characteristics enjoy an edge over their peers and life forms developed gradually millions of years ago.

Backers bristled at suggestions that they favor the teaching of creationism, which says that life began about 6,000 years ago in a process described in the Bible's Book of Genesis.

White said he is the father of seven children, including a 10th-grader at a public high school in Baton Rouge.

He said he reviewed 21 science textbooks for use by middle and high school students. White called Darwin's book "racist and sexist" and said students are entitled to know more about controversy that swirls around the theory.

"If nothing else, put a disclaimer in the front of the textbooks," White said.

John Oller Jr., a professor at the University of Louisiana-Lafayette, also criticized the accuracy of science textbooks under review. Oller said he was appearing on behalf of the Louisiana Family Forum, a Christian lobbying group.

Oller said the state should force publishers to offer alternatives, correct mistakes in textbooks and fill in gaps in science teachings. "We are talking about major falsehoods that should be addressed," he said.

Linda Johnson of Plaquemine, a member of the board, said she supports the change. Johnson said the new message of evolution "will encourage students to go after the facts."


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: crevolist; evolution; rades
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To: B. Rabbit
This has not been refuted. Using only the mathematics of the above, it is not unreasonable to see a possible connection of origin between X and Y. It is not proof, as you say, but there is a possibility. Explain where your "theory of the excluded middle" is located on a prominent science page so that I can see for myself whether it applies.

Find a book on logic and look up "law of the excluded middle" in the logical fallacies section. The conclusion x evolved from Y does not flow from the original premise. And logically, I would be just as correct in assumning that chimps evolved from men as you would be in concluding that man evolved from chimps! Your saying that there is a "possibility" is not science - it is faith. There is no reason to believe that man evolved from chimps unless you have a faith in evolutionary theory. What happened to your pure scientific approach? What happened to "oil and water". It seems you yourself are more religious (take it on faith) than scientific when it comes to evolution.

3,161 posted on 01/06/2003 9:28:19 AM PST by exmarine
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To: Alamo-Girl
why would you think that God is bound by any of our physical laws, space/time, dimensions, geometery, origins, etc.?

He's not. For example, some people in this discussion seem to think "time" is something bound by our Universe and didn't exist before the "Big Bang". I agree with that. Conquering time is something man has obviously never been able to do & and will not be able to do.
3,162 posted on 01/06/2003 9:30:07 AM PST by usastandsunited
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To: exmarine
Find a book on logic and look up "law of the excluded middle" in the logical fallacies section. The conclusion x evolved from Y does not flow from the original premise. And logically, I would be just as correct in assumning that chimps evolved from men as you would be in concluding that man evolved from chimps! Your saying that there is a "possibility" is not science - it is faith.

Man did not evolve from chimps. Man is X and chimps are Y. Somewhere along the line, they have a common ancestor, I believe. A theory has been presented to the world which is the only SCIENTIFIC THEORY that has ample evidence. You can choose to ignore it because you want to stick with the safe "goddidit" approach to life, I am more inclined to see otherwise. A possible theory, backed by evidence has an amount of faith in it. Your theories have zero evidence and constitute pure faith. That's fine, but it is not for me.

3,163 posted on 01/06/2003 9:34:58 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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To: Tribune7
Again, that depends as to how the phrase is being used and to which "theory of evolution" one is referring.

The topic of this thread, and the one to which I referred, is Biological Evolution, i.e., the Origin of the Species.

3,164 posted on 01/06/2003 9:38:36 AM PST by longshadow
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To: betty boop
If were to push your logic, I would have to ask: Are you saying that science could simply dispense with scientists? I had thought the reason that scientists bother to design experiments is to be able to observe their results.

I'm not sure how you go from "atoms can collapse wave functions" to "science doesn't need scientists". Scientists aren't there to play a metaphysical role, but a practical one: humans want to develop predictive mathematical models of natural processes, the better to exploit them (technology, in other words). Our job isn't merely to collapse wavefunctions: mathematical models and technological widgets are "knowledge" things.

In principle, experiments aren't necessary for knowledge: whatever can happen is compulsory, so if you wait long enough, you will eventually observe every "special case". In practice, humans are an impatient lot, so we set up those special cases to see what will happen. We start out by watching apples fall, but then take to dropping things because we won't wait until next harvest time. We watch cosmic rays leave traces in nuclear emulsions, but build particle accelerators when we realize how very long it would take to catch a Higgs particle that way.

3,165 posted on 01/06/2003 9:45:15 AM PST by Physicist
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To: longshadow
The topic of this thread, and the one to which I referred, is Biological Evolution, i.e., the Origin of the Species.

And I'm sure you were. But it can't be disputed that the phrase is often used -- correctly -- to mean "a process in which the whole universe is a progression of interrelated phenomena."

Your repudiation of that concept actually advances the debate but it doesn't hurt to continually point out its inherent silliness.

3,166 posted on 01/06/2003 9:46:01 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: usastandsunited
Thank you so much for your post!

I agree with you that God is not bound by any of our physical laws, space/time, dimensions, geometery, origins, etc. In fact, my "theme" on these threads has always been that time is part of the creation and not something in which the Creator exists.

We cannot measure Him by any means in the physical realm. That is why - in the physical realm, at the moment of origin - He appears to us as the Hebrew word Ayn Sof describes - infinite and null.

3,167 posted on 01/06/2003 9:46:48 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Physicist
That was my starting point, as a Deist.

Well knock me over with a feather. I would have thought you to be agnostic.
3,168 posted on 01/06/2003 9:51:04 AM PST by usastandsunited
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To: B. Rabbit
Man did not evolve from chimps. Man is X and chimps are Y. Somewhere along the line, they have a common ancestor, I believe.

You believe. Well, how can you prove me wrong if I say chimps evolved from man? From the premise (x is similar to y in z), this is also a possibility.

A theory has been presented to the world which is the only SCIENTIFIC THEORY that has ample evidence.

I have never seen any of the evidence you speak of. Where is it? All the evidence I have ever seen is bogus, but is given credibility with the addition of the "just so" stories (fantasies from the minds of evolutionists). How is it scientific if it is taken on faith and not evidence?

A possible theory, backed by evidence has an amount of faith in it. Your theories have zero evidence and constitute pure faith. That's fine, but it is not for me.

I thought faith and science were like "oil and water". It seems your definition of science is still evolving (pardon the pun).

3,169 posted on 01/06/2003 9:57:12 AM PST by exmarine
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To: Physicist
In principle, experiments aren't necessary for knowledge: whatever can happen is compulsory, so if you wait long enough, you will eventually observe every "special case".

Ummm, I don't think so. On what basis do you make such an outlandish statement. The law of statistical averages and science of probability comes into play here.

3,170 posted on 01/06/2003 9:59:50 AM PST by exmarine
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To: exmarine
The law of statistical averages and science of probability comes into play here.

Of course. What do you think I meant by "long enough"?

You tell me the probability of a thing occurring, and the precision to which you wish to measure the thing, and I can calculate "long enough" for you.

3,171 posted on 01/06/2003 10:03:10 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Physicist
Of course. What do you think I meant by "long enough"?

The problem is that the universe is finite (15 billions years?) - you do not have infinite time for all special cases. Some "special cases" cannot possibly occur even within the timeframe of the age of the universe, e.g. the self-assembly of a protein molecule for example.

3,172 posted on 01/06/2003 10:06:35 AM PST by exmarine
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To: exmarine
You forgot: "It sprang into existence."
3,173 posted on 01/06/2003 10:07:30 AM PST by Junior
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To: B. Rabbit
You take God's non-existence on pure faith friend. Let me prove it to you. Draw a little dot on a piece of paper and let the dot represent you. Now draw a circle around the dot. Let that space within the circle represent ALL of your knowledge. All space OUTSIDE the circle will be all of the knowledge outside of your awareness. We must conclude from this if we be reasonable that your knowledge constitutes a very small fraction of the possible knowledge to be known about the universe (let us say, .0000001%). Now then, I ask you: Is it posssible that God could exist outside of your circle of knowledge?
3,174 posted on 01/06/2003 10:10:37 AM PST by exmarine
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To: Fester Chugabrew
You deleted half of his comment!!

"Look, I'm a card-carrying Baptist. I believe God created the universe and for all I know [mind you, this is one of the world's best particle physicists] particles may well have karma. But there's nothing I can say about it as a physicist. There's no 'Physics of Religion' course anyone on this campus can teach. And I'm sure there are more learned Baptists than me. So if you want a discussion with a learned physicist, I'm your guy. But if you want to discuss religion, I respectfully suggest you leave."

You wrote.

You have just set forth an example of a Bible believing Christian who can perfectly well engage in scientific learning and discussion. I wonder how well such a declaration on Howard Georgi's part would hold up in most universities today. A good many evolutionists would dismiss him out of hand just because he is a creationist.

That above is the biggest load of crap. So what if he believes in creationism? As a scientist this does not stop him from looking at the universe in a scientific fashion. You will not see him create a SCIENTIFIC theory that says "godidit". If he did, Then he would be laughed and ridiculed. Because he keeps his science and his religion SEPARATE he is not going to be ridiculed.

THere is NO reason that a scientist cannot look at evolution and say scientific, yet believe in creationism, and say religious. I have known and do know many Scientists that are christian, Jewish etc, who believe religiously creationism, yet study and believe in the science of evolution.

I am so tired of your incessant, creationism/ID is science, when it is OBVIOUS that it is NOT. Can you find some other reasoning, because this one is showing that you are A: too stupid to understand the point we are making, or B: too bullheadedly fanatical to want to.

Either way, it is getting rather irritating reading you make the same points over and over and over again.

Yes, a SCIENTIST can believe in creationism, and YES he can Study and believe in evolution, but if he mixes the 2 in a scientific aspect, then he WILL be ridiculed.

OK? Are we done? can we move on now?

Damn!!
3,175 posted on 01/06/2003 10:19:47 AM PST by Aric2000
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To: exmarine
Some "special cases" cannot possibly occur even within the timeframe of the age of the universe, e.g. the self-assembly of a protein molecule for example.

LOL, so that's where you were going with that.

I wasn't going in that direction, myself. Since you bring it up, however, I'll point out that much larger molecules than proteins self-assemble on a very short timescale, so you might want to re-think how you calculate those probabilities. The science of doing that is called chemistry.

3,176 posted on 01/06/2003 10:28:09 AM PST by Physicist
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To: exmarine
Your misunderstand the nature of God. God didn't spring from anything. He is the creator - self-existent and eternal, outside of time. Your refusal to consider that possibility simply shows that you have a bias against God. If God created all natural laws, that makes God lead scientist.

And you sir misunderstand the nature of science.

The existence of god can neither be proven NOR disproven, therefore Science CANNOT use god. God is religious in nature.

Prove that god exists and then science can use him in theories, but until then, SCIENCE cannot use god. Are we clear yet? Geez, you and Fester, man what a silly conversation this is.

Where are we going next on this little roller coaster ride to no where?
3,177 posted on 01/06/2003 10:28:13 AM PST by Aric2000
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To: Aric2000
THere is NO reason that a scientist cannot look at evolution and say scientific, yet believe in creationism, and say religious. I have known and do know many Scientists that are christian, Jewish etc, who believe religiously creationism, yet study and believe in the science of evolution.

What is the basis for keeping belief in God and science separate? I will tell you - it is purely philosophical! The FACT is (if you know your history) that the biggest scientific discoveries in science were produced by men with Christian worldviews (pre-Darwin!). Ever hear of Newton, Copernicus, Galileo, Brahe, Keppler, Bacon? These men were able to make their discoveries because they had the CORRECT view of the universe, i.e. that it is ordered and rational. This view was borne out of their judeo-Christian worldview. That is precisely why the biggest scientific discoveries were made in the West and not in China or Africa. Since that day, however, philosophy has shifted. Now, as a result of the naturalistic philsosphical bias thoughout all academia in the west, science and Christianity have been separated, it is now dogma that the two do not mix. Just because YOU say science and Christianity do not mix does not make it a fact, it simply makes it YOUR PHILOSPHY.

3,178 posted on 01/06/2003 10:31:26 AM PST by exmarine
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To: Aric2000
Prove that god exists and then science can use him in theories, but until then, SCIENCE cannot use god. Are we clear yet? Geez, you and Fester, man what a silly conversation this is.

See my post 3178. Prove that God doesn't exist! YOu take it on faith! Are we clear yet?

3,179 posted on 01/06/2003 10:32:47 AM PST by exmarine
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To: Aric2000
And you sir misunderstand the nature of science.

I suppose only evolutionists can understand science? They have a monopoly on good scientific investigation, right? Again, see my post 3178. YOu ask me to prove the existence of God, but you cannot even prove to me how a protein molecule self-assembled (essential prerequisite for naturalistic evolution), or how information is added to the genome through NS+mutation. I must conclude that in order to understand YOUR brand of science, I would have to understand your worldview first because that is where your view of science comes from.

3,180 posted on 01/06/2003 10:38:43 AM PST by exmarine
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