Catholic Analysis: Mariology is Biblical

Vivificat! - A Catholic Blog of Commentary and Opinion ^ | 27 December 2005 | Teófilo

[Teófilo]

Folks, my blogger colleague, Oswald Sobrino of Catholic Analysis, has written a good essay regarding "Mariology," that is, the theological study and liturgical recognition of the place of Mary, the Mother of the Lord, the Theotokos, in the economy of salvation. It is entitled Mariology is Biblical. Here's an extract:

One of the great stumbling blocks for our Protestant brethren who are on the verge of crossing the Tiber, i.e., entering into full communion with the Catholic Church, is the great attention paid to the Mother of Jesus by Catholics. This hesitation is understandable: Protestantism is a reaction against Catholicism, and one of the reactions has been, historically, to exile the Mother of Jesus from salvation history. In recent times, some Protestants have sought to correct this strange exile of the Mother of God by looking back to the writings of the Church Fathers and to the early ecumenical councils, especially the fifth century Council of Ephesus. Yet, even Catholics can have a hard time responding to the insistent Protestant plea that to venerate Mary is to somehow detract from the one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).

...

The crux of the matter is that Mary's extraordinary mediation as Mother of Jesus derives from and is included in the unique mediatorship of Christ himself. What we ask our Protestant brethren to consider prayerfully, and, yes, quite biblically, is that the mediatorship of Christ is inclusive and admits of and even insists upon our participation. If we participate, as Paul did, then certainly the one whom the ecumenical Council of Ephesus termed the "Mother of God" or "God-bearer" in 431 A.D. does also. Interestingly, today, even some conservative evangelical Protestant scholars openly refer to Mary as "Mother of God" based on the significance they ascribe to the Council of Ephesus. They are discovering the riches of the faith preserved for them through the centuries preceding the Reformation by none other than the Catholic Church.

- I urge all of you to read the entire piece at Catholic Analysis.

[netmilsmom]

1. I did not post this thread.

2. The Anti-Catholic Troll hunters started because while Protestants will come onto every thread with Rosary, Pope or Mary in the title, We don't go onto Protestant threads and try to "minister" to you.

3. The same kind people who come to these threads to set us straight NEVER go to the Jewish threads to do the same for them. I know because I am on three of the ping lists.

4. When I go onto any of the Protestant threads and spout how wrong YOU are, or any other Catholic does the same, PLEASE call them an Anti-Protestant Troll. Be my guest. And please ping me, I will be amazed. Also stand in line behind you to state that they are crass and disgusting for butting into your thread to tell YOU that it is the Catholic way or the highway. Even this thread that you have taken such offense to, is explaining Catholic doctrine to those that are searching. I have Protestant friends who attended our RCIA classes (to become Catholic). They were appalled that we never "ministered" to them. If you are not searching, why are you so offended by this? It's not talking to you.

You have a fine relationship with Jesus. So do I. Christ asked you to spread his Good News, not a particular religion. Maybe we should be spreading something good.

And, my dear FRiend, I also have a right to state my opinion. My degree of polite will mirror yours.

[Salvation]

Just what is unscriptural about Mary, the mother of God?

Have you read Luke lately? Why is it that Protestants take the Bible so literally, but when the Bible proves a Catholic point, they bah-humbug it?

[netmilsmom]

>>Perhaps if you read a little scripture with an open mind instead of filtered through the Magisterium, you might have some arguments and you ust might see the error of your ways.<<

Oh and BTW, I did BSF and attended a Presbyterian church.

[AnalogReigns]

I'm a student of Church history, and the veneration of Mary as an additional mediator...along with the title "Mother of God" is an interesting topic.

It's true such practices came very early...and "Theotokis" (God bearer) was a phrase used to battle the Gnostics who claimed Jesus was not human, with a real body. The emphasis was not that God eternal had a mother....but that God the Son in his full humanity had a real, flesh and blood mother, proving He was fully man.

Honestly, as a Protestant, I have never heard a convincing argument distinguishing between veneration and worship. If a Hindu who didn't know the language visited a Roman Catholic church he would think they were doing the same thing to the images of Mary (or various saints) as he did with his gods... It's the old, "walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, eats like a duck...then IT'S A DUCK!" argument to me. I've heard it said its not the image being prayed to...fair enough, I'm sure that's true. I'm also sure that the Hindu (or the old Pagan Roman) didn't actually pray to the statue either...but the person/thing/deity behind it.

That's why the 1st Commandment is very specific...'don't make an image and bow down and worship it'...and I've never seen veneration of an image that was distinguishable from simple worship.

Also I see no evidence at all of any saint of God communicating with another saint who was dead and gone to heaven....Not once does Paul, Peter, Mary or any of these folk communicate in prayer to anyone but God Himself, Father, Son or Holy Ghost. It took later Catholics to give us a better example? I don't think so....

[netmilsmom]

Read through this site...

http://www.catholic.com/library/anti_catholicism.asp

I never understood why we were such targets until I read Karl Keetings book from these writings.

[P-Marlowe]

The Anti-Catholic Troll hunters started because while Protestants will come onto every thread with Rosary, Pope or Mary in the title, We don't go onto Protestant threads and try to "minister" to you.

You just spent any credibility that you had on this forum.

[freedumb2003]

Catholics love the Holy Mother.

She has appeared to many in the world -- Our Lady of Guadalupe, Lourdes, etc.

This isn't idolatry -- it is understanding her relationship to Jesus and asking for her wisdom and intercession.

You sound like a DUer. There is no point in insulting Catholics who believe that Mary acts as an additional agent of Jesus.

[P-Marlowe]

Just what is unscriptural about Mary, the mother of God?

I didn't say there was.

Mary was the physical mother of the Incarnate God. But too many Catholics seem to attach some secondary meaning that almost makes it seem that without Mary there would be no Christ.

Are you one of those who thinks that the Title "Mother of God" means that Christ is in subjection to Mary because of some parental authority that she has over him? If that is what anyone means when they call Mary the "Mother of God," then I suggest that they are heretics. Mary's Lord is Jesus. Jesus has no Lord over him and He is not in subjection to anyone. Not even his physical mother.

[freedumb2003]

More importantly, Mary provides a very clear message.

For 10 points -- who can say the last words Mary is quoted as saying in the Bible?

If you can't then you don't understand the importance Mary has for all Christians -- Catholic or not.

[freedumb2003]

That question is for you as well

[netmilsmom]

Point them out!

[Senator Bedfellow]

Jesus has no Lord over him and He is not in subjection to anyone. Not even his physical mother.

Must have made for an interesting exchange when she told Him to eat his vegetables or clean his room...

[netmilsmom]

And you never answered this....

:4. When I go onto any of the Protestant threads and spout how wrong YOU are, or any other Catholic does the same, PLEASE call them an Anti-Protestant Troll. Be my guest. And please ping me, I will be amazed. Also stand in line behind you to state that they are crass and disgusting for butting into your thread to tell YOU that it is the Catholic way or the highway. Even this thread that you have taken such offense to, is explaining Catholic doctrine to those that are searching. I have Protestant friends who attended our RCIA classes (to become Catholic). They were appalled that we never "ministered" to them. If you are not searching, why are you so offended by this? It's not talking to you."

[P-Marlowe]

When I go onto any of the Protestant threads and spout how wrong YOU are, or any other Catholic does the same, PLEASE call them an Anti-Protestant Troll.

I will not call them "Anti-Protestant Trolls." They are sincere Catholic Believers who disagree with protestants and are not afraid to express or discuss that disagreement. They are welcome on the Protestant threads and for the most part are pretty Civil, although some come on the protestant threads and when we challenge them, they naturally respond by calling us Anti-Catholic Bigots.

You really ought to drop the whole idea of "Anti-Catholic Troll Hunters". The fact that you are hunting trolls rather than answering doctrinal questions and challenges suggests to me that your group of do-gooders is actually engaging in the type of behavior that your condemn. Searching the threads for so called "Anti-Catholic Trolls" is, in fact, trollish.

[freedumb2003]

You know the answer, I assume, to my earlier question?

This is more important than you realize....

[netmilsmom]

>>You really ought to drop the whole idea of "Anti-Catholic Troll Hunters". The fact that you are hunting trolls rather than answering doctrinal questions and challenges suggests to me that your group of do-gooders is actually engaging in the type of behavior that your condemn. Searching the threads for so called "Anti-Catholic Trolls" is, in fact, trollish.<<

I stated before, you will get the same amount of polite from me as I get from you. Most on our threads are not polite and state things like "boardering on idolotry" or "it looks like idolotry" totally disregarding what is in a Catholic's heart. So you have your definition of a Troll and so do I.
If someone comes onto one of these threads with the "Praying to statues","repetative prayers" or any of the other uninformed garbage that people spew, they are trolls just as someone comes onto FR in general and spews the DU crap.

On the mainpage, the Kitties come and the person gets zotted. Here, we get people telling us how wrong we are and we smile sweetly and spout doctrine they disregard anyway.

That is until the Troll-hunters came along. Sorry if you don't like it but until Alouette or SJackson confirm that the same people are on the Jewish threads telling them that their doctrine is wrong, they are just Anti-Catholic.

[RobbyS]

...without Mary there would be no Christ. In a way, yes. For Mary became a mother freely. Without Mary there would have been no Jesus Christ as known to us from Scripture. But the closer analogy is that without the Jewish people there would have been no Jesus Christ. Stressing the uniquenesss of Israel --and Mary--stressed the uniqueness of Jesus. He could not have been born into any other nation to any other woman. I say this knowing that God could have chosen another way, but he chose this one, with the participation of Mary.

[netmilsmom]

I have to go back to my BSF days.
Is it...?

Do whatever he tells you (John 2:5)

[netmilsmom]

WHAT does your tagline mean?
It always reminds me of the main charater in Spirited Away.
Her name is Chihiro.

[RobbyS]

Chi-rho.