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CALVINISM IN AMERICA
Reformed Theology ^ | Loraine Boettner

Posted on 12/16/2004 1:23:28 PM PST by Gamecock

When we come to study the influence of Calvinism as a political force in the history of the United States we come to one of the brightest pages of all Calvinistic history. Calvinism came to America in the Mayflower, and Bancroft, the greatest of American historians, pronounces the Pilgrim Fathers "Calvinists in their faith according to the straightest system."1 John Endicott, the first governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony; John Winthrop, the second governor of that Colony; Thomas Hooker, the founder of Connecticut; John Davenport, the founder of the New Haven Colony; and Roger Williams, the founder of the Rhode Island Colony, were all Calvinists. William Penn was a disciple of the Huguenots. It is estimated that of the 3,000,000 Americans at the time of the American Revolution, 900,000 were of Scotch or Scotch-Irish origin, 600,000 were Puritan English, and 400,000 were German or Dutch Reformed. In addition to this the Episcopalians had a Calvinistic confession in their Thirty-nine Articles; and many French Huguenots also had come to this western world. Thus we see that about two-thirds of the colonial population had been trained in the school of Calvin. Never in the world's history had a nation been founded by such people as these. Furthermore these people came to America not primarily for commercial gain or advantage, but because of deep religious convictions. It seems that the religious persecutions in various European countries had been providentially used to select out the most progressive and enlightened people for the colonization of America. At any rate it is quite generally admitted that the English, Scotch, Germans, and Dutch have been the most masterful people of Europe. Let it be especially remembered that the Puritans, who formed the great bulk of the settlers in New England, brought with them a Calvinistic Protestantism, that they were truly devoted to the doctrines of the great Reformers, that they had an aversion for formalism and oppression whether in the Church or in the State, and that in New England Calvinism remained the ruling theology throughout the entire Colonial period.

With this background we shall not be surprised to find that the Presbyterians took a very prominent part in the American Revolution. Our own historian Bancroft says: "The Revolution of 1776, so far as it was affected by religion, was a Presbyterian measure. It was the natural outgrowth of the principles which the Presbyterianism of the Old World planted in her sons, the English Puritans, the Scotch Covenanters, the French Huguenots, the Dutch Calvinists, and the Presbyterians of Ulster." So intense, universal, and aggressive were the Presbyterians in their zeal for liberty that the war was spoken of in England as "The Presbyterian Rebellion." An ardent colonial supporter of King George III wrote home: "I fix all the blame for these extraordinary proceedings upon the Presbyterians. They have been the chief and principal instruments in all these flaming measures. They always do and ever will act against government from that restless and turbulent anti-monarchial spirit which has always distinguished them everywhere."2 When the news of "these extraordinary proceedings" reached England, Prime Minister Horace Walpole said in Parliament, "Cousin America has run off with a Presbyterian parson" (John Witherspoon, president of Princeton, signer of Declaration of Independence).

History is eloquent in declaring that American democracy was born of Christianity and that that Christianity was Calvinism. The great Revolutionary conflict which resulted in the formation of the American nation, was carried out mainly by Calvinists, many of whom had been trained in the rigidly Presbyterian College at Princeton, and this nation is their gift to all liberty loving people.

J. R. Sizoo tells us: "When Cornwallis was driven back to ultimate retreat and surrender at Yorktown, all of the colonels of the Colonial Army but one were Presbyterian elders. More than one-half of all the soldiers and officers of the American Army during the Revolution were Presbyterians."3

The testimony of Emilio Castelar, the famous Spanish statesman, orator and scholar, is interesting and valuable. Castelar had been professor of Philosophy in the University of Madrid before he entered politics, and he was made president of the republic which was set up by the Liberals in 1873. As a Roman Catholic he hated Calvin and Calvinism. Says he: "It was necessary for the republican movement that there should come a morality more austere than Luther's, the morality of Calvin, and a Church more democratic than the German, the Church of Geneva. The Anglo-Saxon democracy has for its lineage a book of a primitive society — the Bible. It is the product of a severe theology learned by the few Christian fugitives in the gloomy cities of Holland and Switzerland, where the morose shade of Calvin still wanders . . . And it remains serenely in its grandeur, forming the most dignified, most moral and most enlightened portion of the human race."4

Says Motley: "In England the seeds of liberty, wrapped up in Calvinism and hoarded through many trying years, were at last destined to float over land and sea, and to bear the largest harvests of temperate freedom for great commonwealths that were still unborn.5 "The Calvinists founded the commonwealths of England, of Holland, and America." And again, "To Calvinists more than to any other class of men, the political liberties of England, Holland and America are due."6

The testimony of another famous historian, the Frenchman Taine, who himself held no religious faith, is worthy of consideration. Concerning the Calvinists he said: "These men are the true heroes of England. They founded England, in spite of the corruption of the Stuarts, by the exercise of duty, by the practice of justice, by obstinate toil, by vindication of right, by resistance to oppression, by the conquest of liberty, by the repression of vice. They founded Scotland; they founded the United States; at this day they are, by their descendants, founding Australia and colonizing the world."7

In his book, "The Creed of Presbyterians," E. W. Smith asks concerning the American colonists, "Where learned they those immortal principles of the rights of man, of human liberty, equality and self-government, on which they based their Republic, and which form today the distinctive glory of our American civilization ? In the school of Calvin they learned them. There the modern world learned them. So history teaches," (p. 121).

We shall now pass on to consider the influence which the Presbyterian Church as a Church exerted in the formation of the Republic. "The Presbyterian Church," said Dr. W. H. Roberts in an address before the General Assembly, "was for three-quarters of a century the sole representative upon this continent of republican government as now organized in the nation." And then he continues: "From 1706 to the opening of the revolutionary struggle the only body in existence which stood for our present national political organization was the General Synod of the American Presbyterian Church. It alone among ecclesiastical and political colonial organizations exercised authority, derived from the colonists themselves, over bodies of Americans scattered through all the colonies from New England to Georgia. The colonies in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, it is to be remembered, while all dependent upon Great Britain, were independent of each other. Such a body as the Continental Congress did not exist until 1774. The religious condition of the country was similar to the political. The Congregational Churches of New England had no connection with each other, and had no power apart from the civil government. The Episcopal Church was without organization in the colonies, was dependent for support and a ministry on the Established Church of England, and was filled with an intense loyalty to the British monarchy. The Reformed Dutch Church did not become an efficient and independent organization until 1771, and the German Reformed Church did not attain to that condition until 1793. The Baptist Churches were separate organizations, the Methodists were practically unknown, and the Quakers were non-combatants."

Delegates met every year in the General Synod, and as Dr. Roberts tells us, the Church became "a bond of union and correspondence between large elements in the population of the divided colonies." "Is it any wonder," he continues, "that under its fostering influence the sentiments of true liberty, as well as the tenets of a sound gospel, were preached throughout the territory from Long Island to South Carolina, and that above all a feeling of unity between the Colonies began slowly but surely to assert itself? Too much emphasis cannot be laid, in connection with the origin of the nation, upon the influence of that ecclesiastical republic, which from 1706 to 1774 was the only representative on this continent of fully developed federal republican institutions. The United States of America owes much to that oldest of American Republics, the Presbyterian Church."8

It is, of course, not claimed that the Presbyterian Church was the only source from which sprang the principles upon which this republic is founded, but it is claimed that the principles found in the Westminster Standards were the chief basis for the republic, and that "The Presbyterian Church taught, practiced, and maintained in fulness, first in this land that form of government in accordance with which the Republic has been organized." (Roberts).

The opening of the Revolutionary struggle found the Presbyterian ministers and churches lined up solidly on the side of the colonists, and Bancroft accredits them with having made the first bold move toward independence.9 The synod which assembled in Philadelphia in 1775 was the first religious body to declare openly and publicly for a separation from England. It urged the people under its jurisdiction to leave nothing undone that would promote the end in view, and called upon them to pray for the Congress which was then in session.

The Episcopalian Church was then still united with the Church of England, and it opposed the Revolution. A considerable number of individuals within that Church, however, labored earnestly for independence and gave of their wealth and influence to secure it. It is to be remembered also that the Commander-in-Chief of the American armies, "the father of our country," was a member of her household. Washington himself attended, and ordered all of his men to attend the services of his chaplains, who were clergymen from the various churches. He gave forty thousand dollars to establish a Presbyterian College in his native state, which took his name in honor of the gift and became Washington College.

N. S. McFetridge has thrown light upon another major development of the Revolutionary period. For the sake of accuracy and completeness we shall take the privilege of quoting him rather extensively. "Another important factor in the independent movement," says he, "was what is known as the 'Mecklenburg Declaration,' proclaimed by the Scotch-Irish Presbyterians of North Carolina, May 20, 1775, more than a year before the Declaration (of Independence) of Congress. It was the fresh, hearty greeting of the Scotch-Irish to their struggling brethren in the North, and their bold challenge to the power of England. They had been keenly watching the progress of the contest between the colonies and the Crown, and when they heard of the address presented by the Congress to the King, declaring the colonies in actual rebellion, they deemed it time for patriots to speak. Accordingly, they called a representative body together in Charlotte, N. C., which by unanimous resolution declared the people free and independent, and that all laws and commissions from the king were henceforth null and void. In their Declaration were such resolutions as these: 'We do hereby dissolve the political bands which have connected us with the mother-country, and hereby absolve ourselves from all allegiance to the British crown' .... 'We hereby declare ourselves a free and independent people; are, and of right ought to be, a sovereign and self-governing association, under control of no power other than that of our God and the general government of Congress; to the maintenance of which we solemnly pledge to each other our mutual cooperation and our lives, our fortunes and our most sacred honor.' ... That assembly was composed of twenty-seven staunch Calvinists, just one-third of whom were ruling elders in the Presbyterian Church, including the president and secretary; and one was a Presbyterian clergyman. The man who drew up that famous and important document was the secretary, Ephraim Brevard, a ruling elder of the Presbyterian Church and a graduate of Princeton College. Bancroft says of it that it was, 'in effect, a declaration as well as a complete system of government.' (U.S. Hist. VIII, 40). It was sent by special messenger to the Congress in Philadelphia, and was published in the Cape Fear Mercury, and was widely distributed throughout the land. Of course it was speedily transmitted to England, where it became the cause of intense excitement.

"The identity of sentiment and similarity of expression in this Declaration and the great Declaration written by Jefferson could not escape the eye of the historian; hence Tucker, in his Life of Jefferson, says: 'Everyone must be persuaded that one of these papers must have been borrowed from the other.' But it is certain that Brevard could not have 'borrowed' from Jefferson, for he wrote more than a year before Jefferson; hence Jefferson, according to his biographer, must have 'borrowed' from Brevard. But it was a happy plagiarism, for which the world will freely forgive him. In correcting his first draft of the Declaration it can be seen, in at least a few places, that Jefferson has erased the original words and inserted those which are first found in the Mecklenberg Declaration. No one can doubt that Jefferson had Brevard's resolutions before him when he was writing his immortal Declaration."10

This striking similarity between the principles set forth in the Form of Government of the Presbyterian Church and those set forth in the Constitution of the United States has caused much comment. "When the fathers of our Republic sat down to frame a system of representative and popular government," says Dr. E. W. Smith, "their task was not so difficult as some have imagined. They had a model to work by."11

"If the average American citizen were asked, who was the founder of America, the true author of our great Republic, he might be puzzled to answer. We can imagine his amazement at hearing the answer given to this question by the famous German historian, Ranke, one of the profoundest scholars of modern times. Says Ranke, 'John Calvin was the virtual founder of America.'"12

D'Aubigne, whose history of the Reformation is a classic, writes: "Calvin was the founder of the greatest of republics. The Pilgrims who left their country in the reign of James I, and landing on the barren soil of New England, founded populous and mighty colonies, were his sons, his direct and legitimate sons; and that American nation which we have seen growing so rapidly boasts as its father the humble Reformer on the shore of Lake Leman."13

Dr. E. W. Smith says, "These revolutionary principles of republican liberty and self-government, taught and embodied in the system of Calvin, were brought to America, and in this new land where they have borne so mighty a harvest were planted, by whose hands? — the hands of the Calvinists. The vital relation of Calvin and Calvinism to the founding of the free institutions of America, however strange in some ears the statement of Ranke may have sounded, is recognized and affirmed by historians of all lands and creeds."14

All this has been thoroughly understood and candidly acknowledged by such penetrating and philosophic historians as Bancroft, who far though he was from being Calvinistic in his own personal convictions, simply calls Calvin "the father of America," and adds: "He who will not honor the memory and respect the influence of Calvin knows but little of the origin of American liberty."

When we remember that two-thirds of the population at the time of the Revolution had been trained in the school of Calvin, and when we remember how unitedly and enthusiastically the Calvinists labored for the cause of independence, we readily see how true are the above testimonies.

There were practically no Methodists in America at the time of the Revolution; and, in fact, the Methodist Church was not officially organized as such in England until the year 1784, which was three years after the American Revolution closed. John Wesley, great and good man though he was, was a Tory and a believer in political non-resistance. He wrote against the American "rebellion," but accepted the providential result. McFetridge tells us: "The Methodists had hardly a foothold in the colonies when the war began. In 1773 they claimed about one hundred and sixty members. Their ministers were almost all, if not all, from England, and were staunch supporters of the Crown against American Independence. Hence, when the war broke out they were compelled to fly from the country. Their political views were naturally in accord with those of their great leader, John Wesley, who wielded all the power of his eloquence and influence against the independence of the colonies. (Bancroft, Hist. U.S., Vol. VII, p. 261.) He did not foresee that independent America was to be the field on which his noble Church was to reap her largest harvests, and that in that Declaration which he so earnestly opposed lay the security of the liberties of his followers."15

In England and America the great struggles for civil and religious liberty were nursed in Calvinism, inspired by Calvinism, and carried out largely by men who were Calvinists. And because the majority of historians have never made a serious study of Calvinism they have never been able to give us a truthful and complete account of what it has done in these countries. Only the light of historical investigation is needed to show us how our forefathers believed in it and were controlled by it. We live in a day when the services of the Calvinists in the founding of this country have been largely forgotten, and one can hardly treat of this subject without appearing to be a mere eulogizer of Calvinism. We may well do honor to that Creed which has borne such sweet fruits and to which America owes so much.

Footnotes:

1Hist. U. S., I, p. 463. 2Presbyterians and the Revolution, p. 49. 3They Seek a Country, J. G. Slosser, editor, p. 155. 4Harper's Monthly. June and July, 1872. 5The'United Netherlands, III., p. 121. 6The United Netherlands, IV., pp. 548, 547. 7English Literature, II., p. 472. 8Address on, "The Westminster Standards and the Formation of the American Republic. 9Hist. U.S., X., p. 77. 10Calvinism in History, pp. 85-88. 11The Creed of Presbyterians, p. 142. 12Id. p. 119. 13Reformation in the Time of Calvin, I., p. 5. 14The Creed of Presbyterians, p. 132. 15Calvinism in History, p. 74.


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KEYWORDS: calvin; calvinism; covenant; reformed
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To: nobdysfool; A.J.Armitage; xzins
John Adams said, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Isn't that at odds with the concept that the government was based on the Calvinist belief of total depravity?

I think the reality is that you had both influences. You had Madison, who drafted the Constitution using his Calvinist background (and training at Princeton) to influence the way he thought and wrote.

But others including Jefferson, Locke and Paine believed in the "goodness of man."

Just like Jefferson's friend, Ronald Reagan...

"I know in my heart that man is good.
That what is right will always eventually triumph.
And there's purpose and worth to each and every life."

261 posted on 12/18/2004 7:21:34 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (CHRISTmas: One season. One reason.)
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To: Corin Stormhands; connectthedots; A.J.Armitage; Dr. Eckleburg
Something in what ctd says strikes a nerve. Why is that?

Perhaps it's the thinly disguised glee with which his supporters pile on, trying to evoke a reaction. Personally, after having enough exchanges with ctd, I know enough about him to know that he is inconsequential, and best ignored. He holds some ideas and beliefs that are marginal at best, and delusional at worst. His opinion doesn't matter to me, nor should my opinion of him matter to him. By your reasoning, if he objects to my assessment of him, it must mean there's some truth to what I say. If you object to what Dr. E, AJ Armitage, or anyone else says, there must be some truth to it.

Let's just drop the whole thing. Hyper-this, hyper-that...bollocks on the whole lot.

262 posted on 12/18/2004 7:25:44 AM PST by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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To: nobdysfool; A.J.Armitage; Dr. Eckleburg; connectthedots; P-Marlowe; xzins
By your reasoning, if he objects to my assessment of him, it must mean there's some truth to what I say. If you object to what Dr. E, AJ Armitage, or anyone else says, there must be some truth to it.

Actually my point was more to the manner in which one objected. But that's another story...

Let's just drop the whole thing. Hyper-this, hyper-that...bollocks on the whole lot.

Okay...


263 posted on 12/18/2004 7:29:36 AM PST by Corin Stormhands (CHRISTmas: One season. One reason.)
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To: Corin Stormhands
I think you missed my point, but that's happened before.

As for Reagans's statement, I'll break it down:

I know in my heart that man is good.

A charitable attitude, although somewhat naive. This is even taught in some churches. It is an optimistic, if naive thought, and Reagan may have believed this as a matter of principle, but he also recognized when people were NOT good, and dealt with them accordingly.

That what is right will always eventually triumph.

Optimistic, and ultimately an affirmation of the supremacy and Sovereignty of God, the very definition of what is Right. I seriously doubt any Christian would object to this portion of the statement, because the bible indicates that this is precisely what will take place.

And there's purpose and worth to each and every life.

Again, a charitable attitude, and there is at least some biblical basis for it. There are both positive and negative aspects to his statement that there is purpose and worth to every life.

Let me ask you this. Do you agree with Reaqan's statement?

As an overall attitude, Reagan's statement is the lubricant of social interaction. He himself summed it up in three words: Trust, but verify.

264 posted on 12/18/2004 7:48:23 AM PST by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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To: Corin Stormhands

Nice pictures. What's yer point?


265 posted on 12/18/2004 7:49:38 AM PST by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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To: Gamecock

Hitler's dead. He had his chance.

There was a time when God did love him. But there was also a time when it became evident that Hitler had hardened his heart and set it on a certain direction.

God used that, imo, to bring about the restoration of Israel. God was right to make Hitler a vessel for wrath in the hands of the Almighty.


266 posted on 12/18/2004 8:07:05 AM PST by xzins (The Party Spirit -- the major issue that keeps me from taking them seriously.)
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To: P-Marlowe

Funny that you show the so-called "Servetus Card" as an Ace of Spades, when in reality it's the 2 of clubs. You must think that it's your "ace in the hole". It's not.


267 posted on 12/18/2004 8:47:51 AM PST by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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To: xzins
There was a time when God did love him. But there was also a time when it became evident that Hitler had hardened his heart and set it on a certain direction.

This is the core of the Arminian error, x. Logically and Scripturally, it is vacant.

God made Hitler. Every hair on his head was numbered by God. Did God NOT know what Hitler would do on his 10th birthday when He made Hitler? Did God not know the day on which Hitler would lose his first tooth? Did God not know on what side Hitler would part his hair? Did God not know from before the foundation of time that Hitler would become the personification of man's basest self and that he would one day try (and nearly succeed) to destroy the entire Jewish population?

Of course He did. And yet He made him anyway. GOD made Hitler, just like He made viruses and earthquakes and flies and T.B. and Stalin and Pol Pot. He made them all for the same reason He makes everything -- because He wants to.

Otherwise you have a madman like Hitler loose in creation, destroying God's saints, reviling His name, who is separate from God's plan for His creation and capable of foiling God's sovereign intent for the universe.

And that's impossible.

The Arminian insistence that God once loved someone like Hitler but Hitler lost his chance at salvation is at best sentimental. But at worst, it leads to enormous confusion about God and man's place in His creation and blurs our understanding of WHY Christ came to earth in the first place.

Christ came to gather His sheep. Hitler was NEVER among the sheep. Thank you, God, that as best as we may know, you and I are. And we were from before time BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT GOD WANTED.

What a fearful world it would be to think Hitler "disappointed" God and that Christ's death on the cross was not enough to save him.

Christ's death on the cross is an act of perfection. It accomplished EXACTLY what it was supposed to accomplish.

Thank you, God. Nothing I've done in my life has deserved His sacrifice. And the same goes for Hitler.

268 posted on 12/18/2004 9:02:30 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Hi, DrE.

I continue to think by what you write that you are not understanding what I believe. It's been a few years, so I suppose there's not much reason to hope things will change.

I've been told that I don't understand what "y'all" believe. Maybe it's a blind spot. Who knows??

In any case, Merry Christmas to you In the name of the All-Knowing One, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


269 posted on 12/18/2004 9:08:16 AM PST by xzins (The Party Spirit -- the major issue that keeps me from taking them seriously.)
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To: xzins
I think you understand our position. And I recognize that you are one of the few who holds the classical Arminian POV of Predestination.

It's just that that view is still hedging God's ability to hold everything in creation in the palm of His hand.

And that's a GOOD thing.

270 posted on 12/18/2004 9:11:19 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: HarleyD; Revelation 911; Corin Stormhands; xzins; Starwind; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54
Well if all you need is one or more of those criteria, then I guess that makes me a hyper-Arminian.


271 posted on 12/18/2004 9:12:34 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: Corin Stormhands

Does God love Herod?


272 posted on 12/18/2004 9:14:43 AM PST by Gamecock (Arminians read Scripture, Calvinists READ Scripture)
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To: xzins
There was a time when God did love him

So He stopped loving him at a certain point?

273 posted on 12/18/2004 9:32:46 AM PST by Gamecock (Arminians read Scripture, Calvinists READ Scripture)
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To: Gamecock; HarleyD; Revelation 911; Corin Stormhands; xzins; Starwind; Dr. Eckleburg; topcat54
7. God loves all men regardless, even Hitler.

Playing the Hitler card now, are we?


274 posted on 12/18/2004 9:33:42 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
No, I'm playing the blatant contradiction of Arminian thought card.

Got that one handy?
275 posted on 12/18/2004 9:36:51 AM PST by Gamecock (Arminians read Scripture, Calvinists READ Scripture)
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To: P-Marlowe; Gamecock; xzins
Both sides are playing that card, marlowe. Aren't you following the conversation?

Hitler's a joker in the deck, put there by God when He rigged the game from before the foundation of the world.

But the Dealer's in control. He marked every card before He cut the deck. It's His table, His chips and His jackpot. He deals and we play out the hands He's dealt us.

And He always wins.

Thank God, He's chosen to share the winnings with you and me.

276 posted on 12/18/2004 9:44:27 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Gamecock; xzins; Corin Stormhands; Starwind
No, I'm playing the blatant contradiction of Arminian thought card. Got that one handy?

Sorry, but it simply does not exist.

It is merely a figment of your imagination.

277 posted on 12/18/2004 9:46:12 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
Sorry, but it simply does not exist.

Sorry counselor,* I see it in every Bible study that I attend with an Arminian. In each one of them I see fear, anxiety and confusion. I don't see any of them resting on Christ's perfect work. Each and every one of them is constantly attempting to improve on their salvation, thinking that somehow they must do more than have faith.

*With a little "c"

278 posted on 12/18/2004 9:58:33 AM PST by Gamecock (Arminians read Scripture, Calvinists READ Scripture)
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To: Gamecock
The more I understand of Arminianism, the more I realize that while many of them are most likely among the elect, there will be two groups at Heaven's gate.

The relieved and the Calvinists.

279 posted on 12/18/2004 10:03:32 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: P-Marlowe; Gamecock; HarleyD; Revelation 911; Corin Stormhands; xzins; Starwind; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Playing the Hitler card now, are we?

Actually, Marlowe, you already played that card YOURSELF, albeit in a much more offensive manner, on this very thread just two days ago....

"Using that logic we could just as easily state that Lutheranism was responsible for the Holocaust"
13 posted on 12/16/2004 2:17:35 PM PST by P-Marlowe

280 posted on 12/18/2004 10:13:18 AM PST by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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