Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
Which extra-canonical books are the eight which you say are excluded from the Catholic Canon? Are Maccabees 3 and 4 two of them? Respectful question asking that you share your knowledge. God bless you and yours!
He commanded you to love your neighbors and to love your enemies. You are just causing fights and you know it. You are doing what you want to do, not what God wants you to do.
It is sad that you will continue to do so. God bless you and forgive you.
Is that your own personal interpretation of Scripture?
How do you know it’s right?
Aren’t you judging the motives and intents of RnMom’s heart,which you cannot mind read?
How do you know you’re not making Jesus sad by judging and condemning her?
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
>>So not a single Catholic in the world has been anointed with the Holy Spirit?<<
Where did you get that nonsense. Of course there are but they don't stay long in that organization.
>>So, are all Protestants so anointed and therefore know the true meaning of Scripture, or only the Episcopalians?<<
Now what does denomination have to do with it? What an odd viewpoint.
>>Just how tiny is your group of Holy Spirit anointed Christians who alone know the Truth while all of the rest of us are lost in ignorance?<<
Interesting that you put yourself in with those who have not been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I've met Spirit filled Christians who worship in many different groups. God isn't limited by some man made denomination or sect. Stop trying to confine Him to a box.
Please list some of the different ways Protestants differ on how to be saved.
Who is ignoring John 20? It's just that we read the rest of scripture also.
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Can you not answer the question?
Maybe because He knew Peter was a movable stone and would deny Him three times and wimp out when eating with Jews. Jesus even said "get behind me Satan" to Peter because Peter was being wishy washy.
Why are you so obsessed with Luther? I don't see Luther taught here ever. It's what the apostles taught the counts.
I think we first need to define love
ROFL!! How many indulgences do they require today?
Probably not based on Catholic precedent.
But I didn’t expect anything else than to have what I say or ask twisted and taken off topic in te form of accusing me of something totally irrelevant.
I still would like an answer to the question from the Catholic perspective.
Come to think of it, you are probably closer to the truth. Anyway, it was started before that "other" church, which will remain un named, but the guilty parties know who they are. 😀😃😄😎😆😱😇🙊🙈🙉
Why do you find that so strange? Mormons don't believe in the Jesus of scripture. They don't even believe in the Trinity. They surely can't be asking the Holy Spirit who is part of the triune God of scripture.
Good post!
Luke 12:51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. 52 For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
We are just wondering when they are going to do it..they have had 2,000 years
Well then, it looks like different denominations exist, because all these people have unanswered questions, and that if they just got their unanswered questions answered, they would just join the "true" church. The true church, we all know, is the Navigator's church. 😀😃😄😱😆😇😎😅😹
Keep up the good work 👍👌
Please list some of the different ways Protestants differ on how to be saved.
Being as I am a former catholic myself, I will add my two cents. True Christians DO NOT differ on the only doctrine that matters, the plan of salvation. There is no way on God's green earth they can differ on that. NO WAY. Differences may come, when they discuss things like pre trib, post trib, soul sleep, and other less important issues, but when it come to Heaven/Hell, there is not even the tiniest margin for error, not even a little bit.
I think that the bashing should stop all around and I take the responsibility to admonish fellow Catholics. I do believe that threads such as this may well cause Jesus to weep. He died for our sins, suffering intensely, and yet so many who sincerely follow Him, regardless of denomination, trade bitter words with each other over doctrinal disputes. In the days of the early persecuted Church, pagans observed that you will know the Christians as those who love one another. We need to get back to that if, as I suspect, an age of persecution may soon begin. May God bless you and [protect you in such times to come, my sister in Christ Jesus.
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