Prayers For, To,and Through the Dead

Reformed Apologetics Thoughts of Francis Turretin Blog ^ | April 21, 2009 | Francis Turretin Fan

[Iscool]

Why are you so obsessed with Luther? I don't see Luther taught here ever. It's what the apostles taught the counts.

It's clear they know nothing about any Protestant denominations...And you can bet they know nothing about Marin Luther other that the sound bites they are spoon fed...

[caww]

....”At my church, for example, we intentionally look past all that fru fru every Sunday. We routinely pray for other churches.”......

I attended a church as that in Pa. for almost a year, (I moved). And it was very much like that as well...in fact for our Bible Study we had Pastors from other churches attend that...mostly because our Pastor was such an outstanding teacher and how he conducted the study...he never taught as if he had all the answers...rather he invited others opinions and wanted discussion....so you can imagine how all learned...it was the best church gathering I have ever attended....discussions got very deep into God’s Word .... it was wonderful!

[metmom]

Thank you for your gracious words and wishes.

[caww]

I miss the debates....we use to learn massively even if we disagreed. Questions could be raised without feeling like you had to believe what the response was. It didn’t fell like sides needed to be taken....rather the search for truth.

Well, not everyone was interested in truth but those who were outnumbered the name callers and those who enjoyed taking their jabs in the midst of their response like they do now.

[metmom]

Better to be able to express our concerns and thoughts than just be spoon fed what we are to believe, no questions asked.

[caww]

I still haven’t had my question answered....if they are praying for the dead to be let out of purgatory how do they tell when they’re released?

[smvoice]

For all they know, they could be praying to “saints” who are STILL in purgatory. Praying to someone to intercede on their behalf who is no more able to approach God from purgatory than Judas himself.

[caww]

Well it's a fruitless endeavor and waste of precious time they could be praying for the souls of people that are alive and in need of Salvation. BUT... What comes to mind is the verse.."let the dead bury the dead"...so I suppose some who practice praying for the dead are just that themselves.

[caww]

You can’t imagine how gratifying those studies were with a room full of Pastors sharing their opinions and takes, using scriptures and some with Historical degrees which added to the clarity of those discussions....asking questions themselves and hearing other Pastors respond. Never felt more like I was surrounded by “great teachers” then when in those studies. And the same was given to those who were not Pastors....’the ground was level’ in that room. Marvelous in every way....

I remember sharing with the Pastor how humbled it was to be among and questioned why God would have me with such a crowd as this....His response stays with me even today.....”When the student is ready God provides the teacher.”

All who were there were interested in knowing Jesus and His Word better and by that loving Him more.....

[metmom]

God will never deny the person who wants to go deeper in Him....

[Freedom_Is_Not_Free]

You are right. Good reminder.

[RnMomof7]

Or in hell

[LadyDoc]

they were part of the Greek Jewish bible that was accepted by most of the Christian and Jewish world at the time of Christ. Paul quoted from this translation when he preached to the Gentiles. Here is a Protestant discussion of the controversy: link

Of course, this thread is posted by someone who posts daily thread about the "evil catholics deliberately changed everything because...well, because they were evil and only those of us in our small tiny church know the TRUTH.

So the one billion Catholics and the half a billion Orthodox Christians are all going to hell, but hey her tiny church will laugh at us from heaven for being evil.

[ebb tide]

It's not for you to admonish "fellow Catholics". It's up to Humble Jorge; and he's been doing that since day one of his papacy.

The Pope Francis Little Book of Insults

[ebb tide]

Every night, I pray for the reversion of apostate Catholics.

[ebb tide]

Luther, an ordained priest and consecrated religious, wantonly broke his vow of celibacy to God, and married a nun, also under a vow of celibacy. Of Luther’s debased teachings, Goldstein observed: “Luther’s writings regarding matters of sex are the opposite of things decent. Only in Socialist free-love writings have we seen commendation of them. There Luther’s lewd writings have won for him distinction as the ‘classic exponent’ of ‘healthful sensualism’ (Bebel, Woman, p. 78, NY, 1910). Too many times through the centuries, immoralities have disgraced the Christian ministry, but Luther has the unenviable distinction of having defended sex sins as ‘necessary’.”[14] One of Luther’s ultimate disgraces was his giving permission to Phillip Land-grave of Hesse to have two wives at once. The license was signed by Luther, Melancthon, Bauer and five other Protestant preachers.[15]

[ebb tide]

Ebb...I look at Catholics with enormous sadness.. working so hard for what God has freely given.. and never knowing if it was enough until "that day"

See Post 475.

[boatbums]

Which extra-canonical books are the eight which you say are excluded from the Catholic Canon? Are Maccabees 3 and 4 two of them?

These are the fifteen extra books that are in the Greek Septuagint (though the same book may be referred to differently):

1. Tobit/Tobias

2. Judith

3. Wisdom of Solomon/Wisdom

4. Ecclesiasticus / Sirach

5. I Maccabees

6. II Maccabees

7. Baruch/Baruch 1-5

8. Epistle of Jeremiah/Baruch 6

9. Additions to Esther/Esther 10:4-16:24

10. Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Young men/Daniel 3:24-90

11. Susanna/Daniel 13

12. Bel and the Dragon/Daniel 14

13. I Esdras/3 Esdras (sometimes called I Esdras)

14. 2 Esdras/4 Esdras (sometimes called 2 Esdras)

15. Prayer of Manasseh

Since Catholics consider these books canon, therefore they do not call them Apocrypha but deuterocanonical, meaning later canon. The Council of Trent in 1546, declared the Apocrypha as canon, except for 3 Esdras, 4 Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh which they call apocryphal. In the Catholic Bible, these additional writings within the books themselves, for example, “Susana” becomes Daniel 13, and “Bel and the Dragon” becomes Daniel 14, while the Protestant Bible only has 12 chapters to the book of Daniel. (from http://www.truthnet.org/Bible-Origins/6_The_Apocrypha_The_Septugint/index.htm#_ftn2)

Also, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint:

All the books of western canons of the Old Testament are found in the Septuagint, although the order does not always coincide with the Western ordering of the books. The Septuagint order for the Old Testament is evident in the earliest Christian Bibles (4th century).[10]

Some books that are set apart in the Masoretic text are grouped together. For example, the Books of Samuel and the Books of Kings are in the LXX one book in four parts called Βασιλειῶν ("Of Reigns"). In LXX, the Books of Chronicles supplement Reigns and it is called Paraleipoménon (Παραλειπομένων—things left out). The Septuagint organizes the minor prophets as twelve parts of one Book of Twelve.[10]

Some scriptures of ancient origin are found in the Septuagint but are not present in the Hebrew. These additional books are Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah (which later became chapter 6 of Baruch in the Vulgate), additions to Daniel (The Prayer of Azarias, the Song of the Three Children, Susanna and Bel and the Dragon), additions to Esther, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Odes, including the Prayer of Manasseh, the Psalms of Solomon, and Psalm 151.

Finally, from http://www.justforcatholics.org/a48.htm:

The Protestant and Catholic Bible are identical except for a set of books called the apocrypha or deuterocanonicals.

The apocrypha consists of 15 pieces of Jewish literature written around 200 years B.C. They are included with the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures known as the Septuagint. Seven of these books (First and Second Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Baruch and Ecclesiasticus, also known as Sirach) and additions to Esther and Daniel, are considered canonical by the Roman Catholic Church. Protestants do not accept them as part of the Holy Scriptures.

Hope that helps!

[BlackElk]

Thank you! I have a Russian Orthodox Bible which contains III Maccabees and IV Maccabees. I wonder where those came from.

God bless you and yours!

[BlackElk]

I would encourage my fellow Catholics to maintain civil relations and a decent respect for Christians of other faiths. Meanwhile, are you not an apologist for the SSPX schism or do I have you confused with someone else? I have had a long and tough winter away from FR.

As to the Pope Francis Little Book of Insults, we have survived worse in the Vatican. I trust that the next conclave will take note of the blunder of the most recent conclave and give us a magnificently Catholic pope once more.