Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
ping
The Communion of the Saints - Catechism of the Catholic Church
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
This is just another Catholic basing thread,and the sad thing is that the Bible is used to justify anti-Catholic Christian basing.
Correction:
Bashing.
And so begins yet another sorrowful round of Christian infighting between the born again evangelicals and the Catholics.
These threads do not serve the Lord God in any way. I am sorry that the good Christians here cannot refrain from posting doctrinal articals that only lead to fighting between us.
Suffice to say, I Love you anyway and as a Catholic, I am happy to turn the other cheek.
God Bless you!
This is just another Catholic basing thread.....
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I see nothing here that bashes Catholics except several dozen Bible verses pitted against man made dogma.
Thank you for posting this. I am also a Catholic and my Evangelical friends and I pray together. We understand that we serve the same God and often work for Him together...particularly to support the right to LIFE and Traditional Marriage.
No, Luther did not remove anything from scripture. It was the Jews who were entrusted with the oracles of God and they did NOT claim it to be scripture. It was the Catholic Church that added it with absolutely no authority from God.
Scripture is always used to counter erroneous teaching. Only those who teach a different gospel consider it bashing. The Pharisees didn’t like it when Christ corrected them with scripture either.
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears." 2 Tim. 2:2,3.
The "infighting" as you call it is over doctrine. God's word v. God's word plus tradition, etc. We are called to reprove and rebuke false doctrine. If this causes sorrow, be assured, false doctrine and false teaching sorrows God more. Especially in light of the fact that He has given us His word so that we might KNOW we are saved, sealed, and kept unto the day of redemption.
Beautiful things happen when Christians of all denominations get together. The churches in our community hold a back-to-school rally every summer. Needy or not, children can come get school supplies free of charge. Nobody bickers and fights. In fact, the only time I’ve seen that is right here on FR. The FR religion forum is the last place a person seeking God would want to go.
I disagree.....
This writer says clearly what catholics need to understand from a Christian perspective and why many oppose the idea of praying and or venerating or whatever each calls it...the dead.........it doesn’t say they have to ‘believe’ it. It simply explains the objections to that practice and behavior.
I thought it was very clear and I do agree with the explanations.
Very clear and exact...thank you for posting this. At the very least it might help catholics understand what is so difficult for them to do regarding the issue.
“The FR religion forum is the last place a person seeking God would want to go”.
And that quote is what disturbs me the most. FR should be a place where people of faith come together... not two to three postings a day based on “I’m right and you are wrong” in your belief system. When I am pinged for prayer requests, I don’t ask the faith. I simply pray to Our Lord. It only takes a handful of people, goodwithagun... who may believe they are “preaching” but are taking Satan’s path IMHO. What better way to do evil than to cause anger/hatred/discourse amongst Christians.
Why do you say dogma?
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