Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
It's clear they know nothing about any Protestant denominations...And you can bet they know nothing about Marin Luther other that the sound bites they are spoon fed...
....”At my church, for example, we intentionally look past all that fru fru every Sunday. We routinely pray for other churches.”......
I attended a church as that in Pa. for almost a year, (I moved). And it was very much like that as well...in fact for our Bible Study we had Pastors from other churches attend that...mostly because our Pastor was such an outstanding teacher and how he conducted the study...he never taught as if he had all the answers...rather he invited others opinions and wanted discussion....so you can imagine how all learned...it was the best church gathering I have ever attended....discussions got very deep into God’s Word .... it was wonderful!
Thank you for your gracious words and wishes.
I miss the debates....we use to learn massively even if we disagreed. Questions could be raised without feeling like you had to believe what the response was. It didn’t fell like sides needed to be taken....rather the search for truth.
Well, not everyone was interested in truth but those who were outnumbered the name callers and those who enjoyed taking their jabs in the midst of their response like they do now.
Better to be able to express our concerns and thoughts than just be spoon fed what we are to believe, no questions asked.
I still haven’t had my question answered....if they are praying for the dead to be let out of purgatory how do they tell when they’re released?
For all they know, they could be praying to “saints” who are STILL in purgatory. Praying to someone to intercede on their behalf who is no more able to approach God from purgatory than Judas himself.
You can’t imagine how gratifying those studies were with a room full of Pastors sharing their opinions and takes, using scriptures and some with Historical degrees which added to the clarity of those discussions....asking questions themselves and hearing other Pastors respond. Never felt more like I was surrounded by “great teachers” then when in those studies. And the same was given to those who were not Pastors....’the ground was level’ in that room. Marvelous in every way....
I remember sharing with the Pastor how humbled it was to be among and questioned why God would have me with such a crowd as this....His response stays with me even today.....”When the student is ready God provides the teacher.”
All who were there were interested in knowing Jesus and His Word better and by that loving Him more.....
God will never deny the person who wants to go deeper in Him....
You are right. Good reminder.
Or in hell
Of course, this thread is posted by someone who posts daily thread about the "evil catholics deliberately changed everything because...well, because they were evil and only those of us in our small tiny church know the TRUTH.
So the one billion Catholics and the half a billion Orthodox Christians are all going to hell, but hey her tiny church will laugh at us from heaven for being evil.
Every night, I pray for the reversion of apostate Catholics.
See Post 475.
These are the fifteen extra books that are in the Greek Septuagint (though the same book may be referred to differently):
1. Tobit/Tobias
2. Judith
3. Wisdom of Solomon/Wisdom
4. Ecclesiasticus / Sirach
5. I Maccabees
6. II Maccabees
7. Baruch/Baruch 1-5
8. Epistle of Jeremiah/Baruch 6
9. Additions to Esther/Esther 10:4-16:24
10. Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Young men/Daniel 3:24-90
11. Susanna/Daniel 13
12. Bel and the Dragon/Daniel 14
13. I Esdras/3 Esdras (sometimes called I Esdras)
14. 2 Esdras/4 Esdras (sometimes called 2 Esdras)
15. Prayer of Manasseh
Since Catholics consider these books canon, therefore they do not call them Apocrypha but deuterocanonical, meaning later canon. The Council of Trent in 1546, declared the Apocrypha as canon, except for 3 Esdras, 4 Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh which they call apocryphal. In the Catholic Bible, these additional writings within the books themselves, for example, “Susana” becomes Daniel 13, and “Bel and the Dragon” becomes Daniel 14, while the Protestant Bible only has 12 chapters to the book of Daniel. (from http://www.truthnet.org/Bible-Origins/6_The_Apocrypha_The_Septugint/index.htm#_ftn2)
Also, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint:
All the books of western canons of the Old Testament are found in the Septuagint, although the order does not always coincide with the Western ordering of the books. The Septuagint order for the Old Testament is evident in the earliest Christian Bibles (4th century).[10]
Some books that are set apart in the Masoretic text are grouped together. For example, the Books of Samuel and the Books of Kings are in the LXX one book in four parts called Βασιλειῶν ("Of Reigns"). In LXX, the Books of Chronicles supplement Reigns and it is called Paraleipoménon (Παραλειπομένων—things left out). The Septuagint organizes the minor prophets as twelve parts of one Book of Twelve.[10]
Some scriptures of ancient origin are found in the Septuagint but are not present in the Hebrew. These additional books are Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah (which later became chapter 6 of Baruch in the Vulgate), additions to Daniel (The Prayer of Azarias, the Song of the Three Children, Susanna and Bel and the Dragon), additions to Esther, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Odes, including the Prayer of Manasseh, the Psalms of Solomon, and Psalm 151.
Finally, from http://www.justforcatholics.org/a48.htm:
The Protestant and Catholic Bible are identical except for a set of books called the apocrypha or deuterocanonicals.
The apocrypha consists of 15 pieces of Jewish literature written around 200 years B.C. They are included with the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures known as the Septuagint. Seven of these books (First and Second Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Baruch and Ecclesiasticus, also known as Sirach) and additions to Esther and Daniel, are considered canonical by the Roman Catholic Church. Protestants do not accept them as part of the Holy Scriptures.
Hope that helps!
God bless you and yours!
As to the Pope Francis Little Book of Insults, we have survived worse in the Vatican. I trust that the next conclave will take note of the blunder of the most recent conclave and give us a magnificently Catholic pope once more.
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