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Grace, Faith, and Works
FishEaters.com ^ | not given | FishEaters.com

Posted on 09/13/2014 10:57:00 AM PDT by Salvation


Grace, Faith, and Works

Crucifixion, by Cavallini

  

Real Audio Lessons on this Topic

Justification by Faith Alone? I
Justification by Faith Alone? II
Justification by Faith Alone? III
Justification by Faith Alone? IV
What it means to be born again
Are you saved?


The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Sola gratia! Grace alone -- but a grace we have to co-operate with. Thinking that all one has to do is pray the "Sinner's Prayer" once to be saved is wrong. Thinking that all one has to do is be a "good person" to be saved is wrong.

 
"We are saved by 'Faith alone'": No!

It takes more than simply knowing Jesus is the Messiah to be saved; even the Evil One knows Who Christ is.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Bible and the Catholic Church don't separate the "works of faith," preceded and caused by grace, from salvation (see relevant Scripture below) You can have all the faith in the world, enough to move mountains, but if you don't have charity, you are nothing:

I Corinthians 13:2 2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.


"We can work our way into Heaven": No!

Catholic teaching for 2,000 years:
we are saved by grace alone, through faith that works in love

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The Catholic Church and Her Bible condemn the idea that one can work his way to Heaven on his own merit or that God "owes" a person for doing the right things.

All our works get their merit only from Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf. We can do "works" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of our lives, but without Christ's grace, they are nothing. Works have no merit in themselves -- and faith without works is not enough. We are saved by grace alone -- a grace that we accept neither "by faith alone" nor "by works alone," but "by faith that works in charity" (Galatians 5:6).

Something I came across on the Internet demonstrates the obvious importance of works. Below is a (albeit rather smart-alecky) joke letter to a pastor who preaches "faith alone":

I am a former Catholic who was recently saved through the Grace of Jesus Christ. All my life I knew I was a homosexual. The Catholic Church told me that I had to refrain from what I was in order to be saved! I never knew that my good works meant nothing! To think, I would have spent my entire life struggling not to engage in homosexual activity, just to wind up in Hell! I now realize that Salvation is through the finished work of Christ ALONE, and not from good works. I am now living as an active homosexual in the freedom of Jesus Christ!

The pastor, almost completely misunderstanding Catholicism but who has an entire ministry devoted to "saving Catholics", responded in part by saying:

It is true that a person is not saved by his works and that salvation is completely of grace. However that does not mean that works have nothing to do with salvation.

Well, "pastor," that's what Catholics have been saying all along!

The bottom line: all salvation comes from the grace of Christ's Sacrifice and only from the grace of His Sacrifice. Salvation is a free gift -- a gift that is not "owed" to us, that God didn't have to offer us, and that we could never "earn" on our own -- that we accept by faith and works.
Christ doesn't have to give us this gift of salvation; we don't "deserve" this gift, we can't "earn" it; but He, in His endless Love for us, offers it nonetheless. We have to believe this gift exists (have faith) and then open our hands to receive it (obey, inspired by the grace given to us).

An analogy: there is a train called "Grace" that is the one and only route to Heaven and which is fueled by Christ's Passion, Resurrection, and Ascension alone. Some Protestants seem to believe that all one has to do is believe the train exists and all will be well. They accuse Catholics of thinking that belief in the train is unecessary, that we can give out free soup in the train station and, thereby, bypass the train altogether. But what Catholics actually believe is that the train -- Grace -- is the only way to Heaven, that it is the only means by which we are saved, that we can't take another route and can do nothing about getting to Heaven without that train. But we also teach that we have to believe in the train's existence and board it through repentance and obedience to what Christ teaches. God is the Conductor of the train, completely Sovereign, and can go off the tracks if need be to pick up those who are truly and invincibly ignorant of the train's existence but who are of good will, obey the natural law, and whom He deigns to save. If, when, and how He might do such a thing is completely up to Him and not for us to bicker about. It is to us to do what He has taught us: to believe, repent, love God and neighbor, and preach the Gospel.


Born Again?

Many non-Catholics, in their confused zeal for Jesus, are constantly asking Catholics if we are "born again," admonishing us that unless we are "born again" we cannot be saved. But you see, Catholics, like St. John the Evangelist in the third chapter of his Gospel, relate the phrase "born again" to the results of Baptism. Baptism is how we enter into the New Covenant, in the same way the Hebrews and Israelites entered the Old Covenant through circumcision (which, you'll note, was done to infants).

When many Protestants use the phrase "born again," they seem to be referring to an "emotional experience." They often expect instant transformation (which can certainly happen), speaking in tongues, miracles, etc. as some sort of "proof" of having been "born again."

Traditional Catholics most certainly agree that repentance (what we call "metanoia") is necessary and that inner transformation (what we call "theosis" or "sanctification") is the goal, but we are very conscious of not confusing "feelings" with "faith." These are two different things, and mere "feelings" can lie: ask anyone who's ever been "love-bombed" in a cult, experienced cocaine or Ecstasy, been to a Woodstock-like music festival, or is just having a really excellent day. Oceanic "feelings of oneness" and "happiness" can be had in pagan religions (read about Greek and Roman "bachanalias" sometime), through natural or artificial chemicals, through the feeling of "falling in love," through hypnosis, through highly sensual experiences, and other things that have nothing to do, inherently, with Christ. The ancient Greeks babbled in tongues, and glossolalia can is still practiced today among Voudun ("Voodoo") cults, during Japanese seances, and by other false religions and in other cultures all over the world. These sorts of experiences must be discerned, and the spirits must be tested! Remember what Christ said would happen even back in the first century:

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It is important to test the spirits and not devalue reason and doctrine! Know that the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance according to Galatians 5:22-23. The fruits of the Spirit are not out of control shaking, screaming, running around, falling down, "holy laughter," vocalizations that don't edify the Church, a "feeling" that doctrine and religion are now unimportant, etc. One should be more in control of one's self after an encounter with the Holy Spirit, not less.

St. Teresa being filled with the Holy Spirit (by Gian Lorenzo Bernini, 17th c.). Catholics would call this experience "being in ecstasy" or "having a mystical encounter."

As to "personal relationship with Jesus, " think of the great Saints -- everyone from Thérèse de Lisieux to St. Francis -- are these people not "born again" in the Protestant sense of "having a deep relationship with Christ" while still remaining 100% believers in traditional Catholic doctrine? Read about the life of St. Patrick and then talk to me about a "personal relationship" with Jesus that some Protestants think Catholics just don't understand.

What of our holy martyrs like Maximilian Kolbe or Nikolaus Gross, murdered by Nazis because of the virtue compelled by their Catholic faith? What about Joan of Arc, martyred for her refusal to deny the divine origins of the voices that led her to defeat the English? If you want "personal relationship with Jesus," read the writings of St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross!


Have you been saved?

Another question Catholics often hear is, "Have you been saved?" Catholics, though, don't see eternal salvation as a one-time event that one can pinpoint and relate to others by saying, for example, "I was saved at 5:30 pm on 23 October 1988 when I got on my knees and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior." We think of salvation, ultimately, as a process that is begun with faith and Baptism (or just Baptism in the case of infants) and is then "worked out" (Phillipians 2:12) as we endeavor to "put on Christ." Additionally, we don't see salvation as something that can't be lost (2 Peter 2:20-21). Even St. Paul himself, the one who did more than anyone else to spread the Gospel, wasn't sure of his own salvation. He wrote in 1 Corinthians 9:27

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Who are we to be more "sure of our salvation" than the Apostle Paul?

Most Catholics, of course, are able to speak of specific events such as the first time they truly "got it" that Jesus is Lord or that the Church and its Scriptures are true; many are able to tell specific stories of experiences of the Holy Spirit. Many have wonderful stories of healings, consolation, and miracles. But to speak of "having been saved," in the past tense, is something we tend not to do unless we are speaking about our Baptism, at which time we were first justified. We speak, instead, of "being saved," in the present tense, as we obey Him after Baptism and endeavor to keep accepting the gift of salvation which we could never earn on our own.

Many Protestants tend to see salvation in legal terms: "I believe, therefore, I am saved because that is God's promise to me. As long as I believe, I can't lose my salvation because the terms of the contract are that I simply believe and I will be saved." Catholics see salvation more in terms of kinship, our adoption into God's very family, our becoming, literally, true children of God and inheriting Christ's sonship through Jesus' sacrifice. We see "working out our salvation" as those things we, inspired by the Holy Spirit, are called to do as children of God, in the same way that a child honors an earthly parent -- and we see God's gift of eternal salvation to us as an inheritance from our Father rather than a "pay-off" for having fulfilled a "contract" by a simple assertion of faith. And as a father can "disinherit" a child if that child no longer treats him as father and freely walks away from his inheritance, so our Father in Heaven can "disinherit" those who don't treat Him as Father (Romans 11:22; Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 6:4-6; 2 Peter 3:17-18). For more in-depth information, read the transcript of this debate on "justification" between Scott Hahn, Catholic and former Presbyterian minister, and Dr. Robert Knudson of Westminster Seminary.


To sum up

So, here's how a Catholic would answer the standard questions from Protestants:
 

Q.

Have you been "born again"?

A.

Yes, when we are baptized, we are "born again of water and Spirit" (John 3).

Q.

Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?

A.

Some Catholics are good Catholics and have a deep personal relationship with Jesus by trusting in Him and receiving His Sacraments. Other Catholics are mere "cultural Catholics" who call themselves "Catholic" because they were baptized once, but don't believe what Christ's Church teaches or don't have the will to practice what His Church commands. Such Catholics are "dead members" of the Church and must be restored by faith and the Sacraments.

Instead of the "Sinner's Prayer," each year at the Easter Vigil, Catholics renew their Baptismal promises by rejecting Satan and all of his works, and by affirming their faith in God the Father, in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord, and in the Holy Ghost. Yes, a Catholic could go through the Vigil by rote and not mean it, just as a person can say the "Sinner's Prayer" and not mean it. Christ is the Judge of men's souls, however, and He knows who truly has faith.

Q.

Have you been "saved"?

A.

Those Catholics who have faith and obey the will of the Father are being saved, by the grace of Christ alone. Catholics who don't have faith and don't obey the will of the Father will not be saved unless they repent and begin to have faith and keep the commandments.

Q.

If you were to die tonight, do you know for an absolute certainty that you would go to Heaven?

A.

No more than St. Paul did when he wrote to the people of Corinth. But we do have the assuredness of knowing that God keeps His promises, that He is good and merciful and just, and that He so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten Son so we might not perish but have everlasting life if we believe, repent, obey, and trust in Jesus.

Q.

By what means are we saved?

A.

By the grace of Christ Whose Blood was poured out for us at Calvary. This Sacrifice is the only means of salvation; by Christ and Christ alone may a man be saved. There is no other way to the Father.

Q.

Why was His Sacrifice necessary? Why did He have to die?

A.

God is infinite Justice and Perfection. Because He is infinite, our sins offend Him infinitely. There is such a chasm between God in His vast perfection and us in our creaturely weakness that nothing we could do could possibly assuage Him for our offenses. But as much as we deserve death, He loves us still and wants us with Him for eternity. In order to restore His honor and maintain the perfection of His justice, there had to be an infinite Sacrifce of appeasement. So, God Himself took on flesh by the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary and became man, not only to teach us with His words, but to save us with His Blood. Only God Himself could save us from the effects of our offending Him because we are so imperfect and weak.

Q.

What must we do to accept the fruits of this Sacrifice and be saved?

A.

In three words, "Believe, repent, and obey." We must: 

·         believe and trust in Christ (John 3:16);
 

·         repent and be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost for the remission of sins (Matthew 28:19, John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38);
 

·         obey the will of the Father and keep the commandments (Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:16-19);
 

·         eat the Body of Christ (John 6:51-69) -- but not unworthily, and only after discerning the Lord's Body lest we eat damnation onto ourselves (I Corinthians 11:23-30);
 

·         judge ourselves (1 Corinthians 11:28-31) and, when we fall, confess our sins to those to whom Christ has given the authority to forgive sins in His Name, and to obey that authority when it comes to what is bound and loosed (Matthew 9:5-8, Matthew 18:18, John 20:21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:18);
 

·         love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love our neighbors as ourselves (Mark 12:30-31).


Relevant Scripture

1 Samuel 2:30
Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 19:16-19
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 4:14-19
The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown; when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them. And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns; they are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

John 3:1-7
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit [Baptism]. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' [This entire chapter is about baptizing, John the Baptist, "ceremonial washing", etc.]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. [Note that the verbs here are in the past tense; Paul is undoubtedly referring to those who've died in a state of grace and whose justification and santification have been completed. And don't read this verse out of context of the one that came 12 verses before it -- Romans 8:17, which says that our glorification depends on our suffering along with Christ, and Matthew 22:14 that says "For many are called, but few are chosen." Being "called" doesn't mean automatic justification.]

Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 11:17-23
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again. [In other words, you're "grafted in," a part of the New Covenant -- but don't brag because you can be cut off]

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind [It doesn't say "unless these people have had the experiences of "feeling saved" or having been born again.]

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. [Even Paul wasn't sure of his own salvation!]

I Corinthians 10:8-12
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. [NIV: "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"]

I Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. [Charity is greater than Faith!]

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:6

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which WORKETH BY LOVE.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For BY grace are ye saved THROUGH faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Phillipians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Colossians 1:23-24
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of [lacking in] the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church. [the NKJV and the NIV translate this last part accurately as: "and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."]

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and LABOUR OF LOVE, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:

1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. [RSV: "...worse than an unbeliever." What is being said here is that "believing" is not enough!]

1 Timothy 6:17-19
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:20-21
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [the Greek word for knowledge here is epignosei, which means a knowledge from experience, not just intellectual knowledge, which would be oida. In other words, the people being talked about here "knew Christ", they had a "personal encounter with Christ" and had the experience of "getting saved"; they didn't just simply "know of Him."]

2 Peter 3:17-18
...beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever.

1 John 2:24
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. [in other words, it is possible not continue in the Father and the Son; it is possible to fall away]

James 1:21-27
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


Further Reading

Temporal and Eternal Salvation Important article on Protestant and Catholic uses of term "faith"
Righteousness and Merit another article highlighting the differences in Catholic and Protestant language
Justification by Faith Alone
Justification in James 2
Salvation Past, Present and Future
Resisting and Cooperating with God
Are all Christians Predestined to Persevere?
The Evangelical notion that Christians can't lose their salvation is unbiblical

 



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; faithandworks
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To: metmom
Your post 112Then you’re not a believer to begin with. So no, you don’t go to heaven, not because of the sin, but because you weren’t saved in the first place.

Nobody who is saved would have the attitude that salvation is fire insurance, like those who are not born again like to portray.

And how do I know that people who think like that are not born again? Because nobody born again would have such a flippant attitude towards sin and salvation.

Born again believers are new creatures in Christ, have died to the flesh and have the Holy Spirit living in them.

It doesn’t mean they’re perfect, nor does it mean they will never sin, but when God puts His Holy Spirit in you, your thinking WILL change and God will not allow you to continue in a habitual lifestyle of sin.

People who are not saved simply do not understand how the saved view salvation and sin.

Your post 236: I did not say that.

Not in so many words, but the meaning is clear. Your post 112:Born again believers are new creatures in Christ, have died to the flesh and have the Holy Spirit living in them.

So again the question was Jimmy Swaggert living in the flesh when he cheated on his wife? You do understand that adultery is a "Fleshly sin"? How about Jim Bakker When he was committing adultery with Jessica Hahn was he living in the flesh? How about Jesse Jackson He has fathered at least one child outside of wedlock, was he living in the flesh.

Your comment from 112:but when God puts His Holy Spirit in you, your thinking WILL change and God will not allow you to continue in a habitual lifestyle of sin.Jim Bakker did a great job of swindling a lot of people. How did their thinking change? Pretty obvious their lifestyles certainly improved from their sin.

Your reading comprehension is sadly lacking.

Actually it is fine, it appears your memory is the thing that is lacking.

241 posted on 09/14/2014 5:58:24 PM PDT by verga (Conservative, leaning libertarian)
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Comment #242 Removed by Moderator

To: metmom

Your comment: Because if Jesus violated the Law in consuming blood, He would have sinned, become a law breaker, and could have not been the spotless, sinless Lamb of God who could take away the sins of the world.

The only reason His death was efficacious was that He was without sin. That’s the only reason He could conquer sin and death.

I see that you speak for God and can attribute sin to him or tell God that his words have no meaning. You are amazing that you know exactly what God does or can do. So you must know more than 2000 years of the Catholic Church teachings.

Good Luck on Judgement Day. I do hope that you get to Heaven, but please don’t try to correct Catholic teaching and faith.


243 posted on 09/14/2014 6:30:13 PM PDT by ADSUM
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To: CynicalBear
Why don't you believe what scripture says? Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

I've used that Scripture in threads with the RC's and the Rootsians (Hebrew Roots). Crickets.

244 posted on 09/14/2014 10:08:15 PM PDT by avenir (I'm pessimistic about man, but I'm optimistic about GOD!)
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To: ADSUM

You simply do not understand that Jesus was speaking in figurative language. The disciples chosen as his special students certainly did. They knew they didn’t actually have to bite off, say, a finger, swallow it, and lick up the gushimg blood. Don’t make yourself a silly spectacle over the obvious contradiction if He meant His symbolism to be taken literally, immediately.


245 posted on 09/14/2014 11:12:49 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: NKP_Vet
The Catholic Church has been converting pagans for the last 2,000 years.

Conversion is not regeneration. The Catholic Church does not and cannot save anybody. Regeneration, saving a person, giving a human new spiritual absolute life is a sovereign power that God arrogates exclusively to Himself.

246 posted on 09/14/2014 11:39:17 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: verga

Works out fine because it is a n irreducible Scriptural fact, not a theoty. And if you don’t accept that fact, the Scripture also says things are not going to work out well for you. This is not a condemnation, just an observation.


247 posted on 09/14/2014 11:58:40 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: ADSUM
I disagree and Jesus stated: “every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand” ( Matthew 12:25 ).

There are at least hundreds of true independent local churches that are in doctrinal agreement and have fellowship because their focus is Christ, His Scriptures untainted, preacing His Gospel and His sovereign love of/to His subjects, and making, baptizing, and indoctrinating disciples in the doctrine of separation from the unclean thing. They stand apart from the error of supra-local extrabibical government and the Nicolaitan error of a clergy class overruling the remaining non-clergy adherents by the method of terrorizing its adherents with exaggerated erudition and idolatrous edifices--a denomination whose focus is on ritualism and an error-soaked self-contradicting catechism.

Speaking of His Church, the Saviour called it a kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God

The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of The God are not one and the same, and they are not any one church. The Kingdom of Heaven is of this world, is visible, an is composed now of both tares and wheat: that is, it is impure, containing both unregenerated believers whose end will be the Lake of Fire, whereas the Kingdom of God/Christ is not of this world. It is the general panegyric (festal) assembly of angels and redeemed ones, the sommoned conclave of The Firstborn From The Dead (Jesus) consisting of, and only of, regenerated discipled believer-preists, the saved of earth. Your description is flawed.

That the Church which Christ instituted for man’s salvation must be one in the strict sense of the term just explained

The churches were not made for the salvation of men. It is the recruitment and training of disciples by sound exposition of God's word that was instituted for the salvation of humans (Rom. 10:17). The local assembly was instituted as a vehicle for coordinating essential activities of strengthening those redeemed members, AFIK (Eph. 4:11-16).

He compared it to a city the keys of which were entrusted to the Apostles ( Matthew 5:14 ; 16:19 ),

That's a stretch. The keys are the preaching of the Gospel of salvation through Christ's substitutionary death, resurrection, and offering of His Blood on the True Mercy Seat in Heaven to make reconciliation, buy which He opened the door to Heaven for any soul who is convicted, repents, and persistently commits total trust ib Christ and His Faith. The keys were not uniquely and solely given ti Simon Peter: they are given to every redeemed person who is expected to unlock the mysteries of the Gospel to all who will hear.

to a sheepfold to which all His sheep must come and be united under one shepherd ( John 10:7-17 );

And that is in Heaven, not on earth, and that fold is not the RCC (Col: 3:1-4, Phil. 3:20)

to a vine and its branches,

A church, or any church is not the vine. This is a misapplication of who/what the vine is. He is The true vine, and true believers are the branches. There is no blending of other personhoods wit His Person.

to a house built upon a rock against which not even the powers of hell should ever prevail ( Matthew 16:18 ).

You are conflating the application of Mt. 7:24 in which the deed is hearing Jesis' sayings and doing tem, where the house is the works and the foundation rock is a similitude of Christ Himself. In Mt. 16:18 the rock is the statement of Peter given him by the Father, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Grammatically, the rock there cannot be Peter, nor does it reflect his social instability and unreliability.

Moreover, the Saviour, just before He suffered, prayed for His disciples, for those who were afterwards to believe in Him — for His Church — that they might be and remain one as He and the Father are one ( John 17:20-23 );

Jesus' Heavenly Church is and always has been in union, the visible ones have not been, esp the RCC.

St. Paul likewise insists on the unity of the Church.

By emphasizing the doctrine of separation from idolatry and heresy (2 Cor 6:14-7:1, 11:3-4; Gal. 1:6-9; Phil. 3:17-19. As a few examples of misinterpretation and misapplication, all well-known of the Magusterium. Rell us, instead of this, how you intend to conduct Scriptural preaching on sin, salvtion, and sanctification, rather than just condemning those who believe ib Dola Scriptura, sole fide, and Providential preservation of the Bible through the conduct of hundreds of local churches according to the Great Commission's command to keep watchfully secure without change whatsoever Christ has commanded (Mt. 28:20)?

248 posted on 09/15/2014 4:24:45 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: verga; metmom
People who are not saved simply do not understand how the saved view salvation and sin.

Like metmom says, unsaved people do not understand how God deals with sin...

God says people will pay now or pay later, but they will pay...And yet, they will not lose their salvation...

It doesn’t mean they’re perfect, nor does it mean they will never sin, but when God puts His Holy Spirit in you, your thinking WILL change and God will not allow you to continue in a habitual lifestyle of sin.

So look at your examples...Jim Baker lost his lucrative ministry, his wife and his freedom...But he did not lose God...God took him to the woodshed...

Same with Jimmy Swaggert...God does not send his children to hell...Nor will he allow his children to go to hell...We who are God's children know that...A pity you don't...

249 posted on 09/15/2014 4:28:39 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: ADSUM
I see that you speak for God and can attribute sin to him or tell God that his words have no meaning. You are amazing that you know exactly what God does or can do. So you must know more than 2000 years of the Catholic Church teachings.

It is no big thing for a bible believing Christian to know more than 2000 years of corrupt Catholic teaching...Catholic religion knows very little about God's teaching but knows heaps about useless human philosophy...Man's wisdom...That is what your religion is based on...Not God's wisdom but man's wisdom...

250 posted on 09/15/2014 4:32:29 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: ADSUM

Breaking God’s Law is sin.

That is not me speaking for God. HE declared that to be the case.

He clearly forbids the eating of blood. To do so is sin.

If Jesus had eaten blood, He would have sinned.

There are no if’s and’s or but’s about it. His death is only efficacious because He had no sin.

Tell me what’s wrong with that line of thinking and why instead of just attacking me.


251 posted on 09/15/2014 5:04:03 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom

You have igmored the direct words of God in the Bible and assumed that he would commit a sin because you have no faith in his words.

Jesus was very explicit in his words and their meaning, when Jews brought up the same issue of eating flesh and blood and they did not have faith snd stopped following Jesus.

I wished you well on Judgment Day and there was no intention of attacking you. Only trying to challenge your thinking and underdstanding as others have done for me.

John 6
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”a

52The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?” 53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” 59These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” 61Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? 62What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?* 63It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh* is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.c 65And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

66As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. 67Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” 68Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”d 70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?” 71He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve

I really hope that you understand the words of Jesus and accept them.


252 posted on 09/15/2014 5:34:22 AM PDT by ADSUM
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To: verga

Apparently I missed quite the food fight. LOL


253 posted on 09/15/2014 6:12:25 AM PDT by defconw (Both parties have clearly lost their minds!)
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To: ADSUM
John 6 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”

So if Hitler, or Nancy Pelosi or anyone who aborts babies eats of that bread, they live eternally with the Father...

really hope that you understand the words of Jesus and accept them.

You're just fooling yourself...If you believed what you are trying to push on us you'd believe anyone who walks into a Catholic church and eats the wafer, that person is going to heaven...How can you even teach something that ridiculous to anyone???

254 posted on 09/15/2014 6:14:25 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool

Perhaps you will meet Judas there too.

Why is there a Judgment Day if everyone is saved.

I am glad that you know exactly that you and others are saved before you die and how God will judge their actions and faith.


255 posted on 09/15/2014 6:14:40 AM PDT by ADSUM
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To: ADSUM
Perhaps you will meet Judas there too.

Not impossible but I wouldn't bet on it...

Why is there a Judgment Day if everyone is saved.

I never said everyone was saved...You made that up...The judgment you plan on being at is for non Christians...Won't be a single Christian there...

Jesus doesn't go after good people to be Christians...Jesus goes after people who need a Savior...After being born again, the Holy Spirit leads people to be good...Some listen far better than others...

When Jesus presents us to God, no doubt God sometimes says, 'that's a pretty bad one you got there'...and Jesus says, 'yes he is but he's still mine'...

I am glad that you know exactly that you and others are saved before you die and how God will judge their actions and faith.

Somehow I don't believe you...Why would we not know how God judges us??? He tells us in the scriptures...

256 posted on 09/15/2014 6:52:46 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: metmom
In the Religion forum, on a thread titled Grace, Faith, and Works, metmom wrote: Breaking God’s Law is sin. That is not me speaking for God. HE declared that to be the case. He clearly forbids the eating of blood working on a Sabbath in the second commandment. To do so is sin. If Jesus had eaten blood worked on the Sabbath or His Apostles had gathered grain to eat, He would have sinned. There are no if’s and’s or but’s about it. His death is only efficacious because He had no sin. Tell me what’s wrong with that line of thinking and why instead of just attacking me.

Fixed it for you. The question is now back to you.

257 posted on 09/15/2014 6:54:25 AM PDT by verga (Conservative, leaning libertarian)
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To: Iscool

Well said.


258 posted on 09/15/2014 7:11:37 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: ADSUM; metmom
>>I am the living bread≤<

Wait..what? Then why do Catholics change the bread into flesh?

259 posted on 09/15/2014 7:15:36 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: ADSUM
You have igmored the direct words of God in the Bible and assumed that he would commit a sin because you have no faith in his words.

On the contrary, anyone who teaches eating of flesh and blood is ignoring the God of the Bible because He said this...

Don't eat the blood, the life is in the blood

Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.

Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”

Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”

Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.

“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.

Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.

Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.

Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.

Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’

Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:

“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Jesus CANNOT break the Law.

He did not come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it.

If He did not fulfill it completely, if He had broken it, He would have also been made a liar.

He could NOT have eaten blood, nor commanded anyone else to in violation of the Law.

That would have rendered Him ineligible to be the perfect, spotless lamb of God to take away the sins of the world, as He would have had sin Himself.

Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

260 posted on 09/15/2014 7:43:31 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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