Posted on 05/29/2014 3:27:32 PM PDT by dartuser
Those who are willing to acknowledge the global context of Revelation have much evidence to support such a view. Those who are determined to shoe-horn Revelation back into the events of A.D. 70 are unlikely to be swayed by our evidence. Thankfully, we need not be overly concerned about the persistence of preterism because the plain meaning of the Biblical text stands opposed to its foundational teachings. As long as Bible students take the text at face value--as it was intended to be understood--then preterism will continue to face an uphill battle. To this fact we owe thanks to the perspicuity of the Scriptures.
(Excerpt) Read more at spiritandtruth.org ...
“Would you mind posting those portions you disagree with, and explain why you disagree with them?”
Well I disagree with almost every portion, and most of them for reasons you already know, but here is the specific part that I think is the weakest of the weak links in your argument:
“The kingdom of God (aka, the Church) has grown significantly over the centuries. But there has been an obstacle to growth and the associated “healing of the nations,” called Satan. The nations, and the kingdom of God, have had to contend with Satan, all this time.”
You’re arguing that Christ is unable to fully institute His kingdom, or is being slowed down somehow by Satan, which is preposterous. Christ has already defeated Satan, on the cross. Satan has no power to oppose the kingdom.
“I understand your logic but the question does not go away just because you say so.”
It’s not me saying so, it’s the Bible:
“And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” Rev. 20:14
“The second resurrection is not specifically mentioned in scripture so wonder if there is one. The second resurrection is however implied by the term “first resurrection” and other things in scripture.”
Yes, on this point we agree. There must be a second resurrection, and it is mentioned in Scripture, just not by that specific name.
The second resurrection is the general resurrection described just before the lake of fire in Revelation, as all those who are resurrected at that time will likely end up in the lake of fire, since they are all judged on their works. Those of the first resurrection are safe from the “second death”, because they are saved Christians who are covered by grace. For the rest, I don’t hold out much hope, since there is not one righteous man on earth, according to the Bible.
That puts a monkey wrench in any doctrine of the unity of the church.
“This is exactly what Jesus taught.
Paul was only saying that we could not work our way to salvation through the law because works with out faith is also dead.”
Yes, exactly right. You can’t save yourself with works, as all our works are as filthy rags to God. So, how do you think God will judge us if He judges us based on those works?
“Jesus is going to raise all of those whose name is written in the book of life, the names written in the book of life are there or not there depending on their works.”
Actually, it doesn’t say that in the description of the second resurrection. It says those who are not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. It is conspicuously silent about any who might be found in the book of life at that time, probably because they were already resurrected during the first resurrection.
I guess Philip belongs to the Bill Clinton school of hermeneutics. When you show him a verse that says “we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye”, he will dispute the meaning of the word “all”.
The angels didn't specify stratus, cirrus, or cumulus clouds either ... so what? ... the angel said He will return in the same way.
He left from the earth, He will return to the earth.
He left from the Mount of Olives, He will return to the Mount of Olives.
He departed to heaven, He will return from heaven.
He was seen leaving, He will be seen coming again.
It's really very simple.
He is passionate about his position ... but exhausting.
It is conspicuously silent about any who might be found in the book of life at that time, probably because they were already resurrected during the first resurrection.
That is the reason for the books, if no one was going to be judged righteous by their works they would have all ready been judged.
I know a few men ( and thank God only a few )who help people for two reasons, one is that they want to be talked about as a good guy, and the other is because they want every one to owe them.
In this case god would owe them.
The pure hearted person will help some one with out thought of a reward of some kind or another.
Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
The ones on the right hand are the ones who,s names will be in the book of life
And if we keep on reading we can see that Jesus does expect us to do the works as he outlined them.
“There would be no need for any of the books or at least the book of life if there were not going to be any names in it.”
I did not say there were no names in it. Obviously there are names in it, because all who are saved by Christ have their names written in the book of life. What I’m saying is: the verses about the book of life which are included in the description of the second resurrection are conspicuously silent about anyone (of those who are part of the second resurrection) being found in the book of life. The verses tell us that those who are not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire, but the verses do not tell us that anyone who is part of that resurrection will be found in the book of life.
This isn’t surprising to me, because if you are in the book of life, you are saved by grace, not judged by works. If you are part of the second resurrection, you are judged by works, which seems to me would preclude you being covered by the saving grace of Christ.
“That is the reason for the books, if no one was going to be judged righteous by their works they would have all ready been judged.”
I’m not sure I am following you. You think that is possible to make yourself righteous through your works?!?
“In this case god would owe them.”
How can God owe anyone anything? God is the ultimate owner of all things, so how is it impossible for Him to incur a debt?
“The ones on the right hand are the ones who,s names will be in the book of life”
Yes, this I agree with. However, both the first and second resurrections happen after Christ’s return, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that passage is describing both events, the first and second resurrection together. The passage clearly uses allegorical language, so it might not be the best idea to read it as absolutely literal, especially as the most literal interpretation conflicts with the other verses that describe separate resurrections for the righteous and unrighteous.
How can God owe anyone anything?
Mostly Paul was talking about the works of the law, not the works of faith.
Many people believe following the law to the letter will save them but it don`t, we are saved by grace through faith.
And James said very plainly that if any one has faith it will be shown by their works, faith with out works is dead.
Jesus told us very plainly that if some one is hungry and we do not feed them ( this is works )we will be put with the goats, there is nothing any plainer than that.
Did I really say anything like that?
No, I do not believe that at all, I believe faith will be shown by works as James said.
Also I believe in two resurrections or at least two parts,
Jesus rose in the first one and there are a lot of evidence that others rose with him.
But the main thing is that if there had been no resurrection Jesus would not have risen so we know for sure there was a first resurrection,and we were not in it.
And although I agree with you that works does not save any one, maybe we should consider what James said about faith with out works being dead
,
Rev 2
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil:
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith,
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev 3
I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 14
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Our works do follow, we are known by our works of faith.
I have explained them many times; in many different threads. The fact that you must believe something that is not found anywhere in the scripture--that there are distinctly separate resurrections for the good and evil that are at least a thousand years apart--should warn anyone reading this to approach all futurist interpretations with caution.
>>>You keep talking about this rapture to me and I’m not sure why. I believe in the resurrection of all Christians at Christ’s second coming, just as the Bible teaches.<<<
How does that differ from a so-called rapture?
>>>It sure does when all of the signs mentioned in that verse only match with the description of the first resurrection in Revelation, and Revelation is also clear that only the righteous are resurrected at that time. This leaves no room for your interpretation.<<<
How about the resurrection as explained by Daniel and John? How do they fit your "righteous only" resurrection?
>>>He said “the hour is coming”, a figure of speech meaning that the time is coming when some prophetic events will unfold. It doesn’t mean they all happen in one hour.<<<
I see. You believe those resurrections--one for the good and one for the evil--happen one thousand years apart, as indicated in the Revelation? Is that your interpretation of an "hour?" Is that your interpretation of the part of Daniel 12:2 where it reads:
". . . many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
And how do you explain the parable of the wheat and the tares:
"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." (Mt 13:24-30 KJV)
How about this parable where the angels were instructed to separate the wicked from the just, not the other way around:
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Mt 13:47-50 KJV)
And how about this parable where all nations are gathered before the Lord, and he separates them according to their works:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: . . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Mt 25:31-41 KJV)
The reason I know Christ separates them according to their works, is because he said he would:
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Mt 16:27 KJV)
No where does Christ say there is a special resurrection for the righteous and, then much later, a separate resurrection for the bad. Frankly, I do not believe futurists have thought this through.
>>>Which is correct, at that time, the end times, both resurrections happen. This can’t mean they both happen simultaneously, or that would make Revelation untrue, and it would make God a liar. I, for one, prefer the interpretation that does not create contradictions.<<<
Or, it could be that someone has a vivid imagination. This is the way I see it. There are two distinct resurrections in the Revelation:
1) the first resurrection was for the royal priesthood, which occurred in AD 70. They were the elect from the tribes of Israel: the chosen generation: the remnant. They were spoken of in both the old and new testaments. In the Revelation they are revealed as those who sit on thrones as judges (e.g., the disciples,) and those who were martyred. Daniel prophesied that many evil ones (also from Israel) were resurrected at the same time.
2) the second resurrection is the general resurrection for the rest of us (Jews and Gentiles) that will occur after the "thousand-year" reign, and after Satan is defeated.
>>>“Why should I believe your interpretation?” Because it doesn’t make God out to be a liar, maybe? Or you can go on believing your interpretation, in which God contradicts himself.<<<
How do you know your interpretation does not make God out to be a liar? I personally believe your interpretation makes too many assumptions, and spiritualizes too much scripture. I don't believe you are trying to make God out to be a liar (heaven forbid I ever get that high-minded;) but I do believe you have been grossly misled by someone into believing things that are simply not to be found in the scripture.
Philip
I am not arguing anything. The scripture plainly states that Satan has plenty of power after the resurrection:
"Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency." (1Cor 7:5 KJV)
"Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices." (2Cor 2:11 KJV)
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." (2Cor 11:13-15 KJV)
"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." (Eph 6:11 KJV)
"Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." (1Tim 3:7 KJV)
"For some are already turned aside after Satan." (1Tim 5:15 KJV)
"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." (2Tim 2:26 KJV)
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" (1Pet 5:8 KJV)
I believe you have misinterpreted these verses:
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1Jn 3:7-10 KJV)
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" (Heb 2:14 KJV)
In the last verse we saw that Satan has the power of death. But Paul and John prophesied that Christ will eventually destroy Satan and his power of death:
"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor 15:25-26 KJV)
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev 20:10 KJV)
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Rev 20:14 KJV)
Philip
>>>That puts a monkey wrench in any doctrine of the unity of the church.<<<
Not at all. I believe it strengthens us, once we cast aside the many false doctrines that have divided us.
Philip
That's funny? I was thinking similar things about you; but, instead, I guessed you belong to the Al Gore School of "Consensus Is The Only Fact" (so don't bother me with any real facts.)
>>>When you show him a verse that says “we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye”, he will dispute the meaning of the word “all”.<<<
Why would I do that? I believe that is exactly what happened at the first resurrection, and exactly what will happen at the second. When I add those together, it equals "all."
Boogieman, will you please debate the scriptures? I never liked Comedy Central.
Philip
I perceive there is nothing left to debate with you.
Philip
That is the reason for the books, if no one was going to be judged righteous by their works they would have all ready been judged.<<<
Amen to that. Jesus said in may ways that he would judge us according to our works, both in the Gospels, and in most, if not all, of his epistles to the seven churches of Asia. He also mentioned it in the last chapter of the Revelation:
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Rev 22:12 KJV)
>>>The pure hearted person will help some one with out thought of a reward of some kind or another.<<<
And the pure in heart will see God.
Philip
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” (Rev 22:12 KJV)
And the pure in heart will see God.
The heart is the only place this could be decided.
And is summed up pretty much in the Parable of the sheep and goats.
Most people of today have never been hungry and totally with out so it does not get much attention.
I will admit it has been many years ago but I have been there.
Jesus knows very well that every one of us has fallen short of being fit for the kingdom of God.
And of course I know that I am not fit, so I make the excuse that the only thing required is faith, what a cop out.
When Jesus requires so little, just doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Reminds me of seeing a man standing on the road in 120 or 130 degree heat and needing a ride, I can`t stop to pick up any trash as I have to be on time for Church.
Sorry, I have to quit here as I start looking back and can`t help but see how unfit I really am.
“When I add those together, it equals “all.””
If that verse were describing both resurrections, then both would have to happen at the last trump, in the twinkling of an eye. Of course that creates more contradictions, but that doesn’t seem to bother you.
“The scripture plainly states that Satan has plenty of power after the resurrection:”
None of those verses you quote say a word about Satan having any power to oppose Christ. Your thesis was that the implementation of the Kingdom, which is accomplished by Christ, is somehow hindered by Satan, but all you can show me are quotes that Satan is trying to mislead individual believers. In fact, the same posts that you quote show that if those individual believers clothe themselves in the “whole armor of God”, then Satan will have no power over them either.
No. Paul was speaking to Christians of his day, about their imminent resurrection: the first resurrection for the martyrs and the judges. There are so many clues that Paul is speaking in the present tense, I am surprised you missed them all. There are also clues from John, James and Peter, as well as all the direct statements made by Jesus. Which translation are you using?
>>>Of course that creates more contradictions, but that doesn’t seem to bother you.<<<
It is a fact that there are some on this forum that are not bothered by contradictions within their doctrines. When they find them, they explain them away. Are you one of them?
I am not one of them, because I know that God doesn't contradict himself. When I read doctrines that appear to be contradictory, such as dispensationalism; I always fall back on these words from the wise: "Let God be true, but every man a liar." (Rom 3:4) Only men blinded by indoctrinations and imaginations, believe there are contradictions in the Word of God.
Philip
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.