Posted on 05/29/2014 3:27:32 PM PDT by dartuser
Then why does it take over a thousand years to defeat Satan? What is the purpose of this verse?
"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor 15:25-26 KJV)
Why doesn't he simply do it, and get it over with? Why wait a "thousand years?"
Think about it: what enemy does Christ have, other than Satan and his angels? Are you familiar with these verses?
"And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" (Acts 13:10 KJV)
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Mt 25:41 KJV)
>>>Your thesis was that the implementation of the Kingdom, which is accomplished by Christ, is somehow hindered by Satan, but all you can show me are quotes that Satan is trying to mislead individual believers.<<<
Is it your understanding, that, as long as Satan only comes after people, he is not an enemy of Christ? That is imaginative; but I assure you that Christ loves his children; and the enemies of His children are His enemies.
Too bad you didn't have this passage handy when you wrote your reply:
"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels." (Mt 13:37-39 KJV)
If you had known and understood that passage, and/or the two previous verses, prior to posting this, we could have moved onto other points of disagreement. But I am in no hurry. It is all God's Word:
"… and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2Tim 3:16 KJV)
>>>In fact, the same posts that you quote show that if those individual believers clothe themselves in the “whole armor of God”, then Satan will have no power over them either.<<<
Sorta. I suspect the early Saints, like Stephen and James, were carrying the "whole armor of God" at the time the children of Satan--those that controlled Jerusalem--murdered them. For some reason, I also suspect that murdering them might be considered having "power over them."
Of course, the "only" consequence of the Saints losing their lives (rather than their souls) is that Christ no longer had their services to help spread his Word. Their reward for laying down their lives for us is they are forever reigning as priests and kings with Christ in heaven:
"But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever." (Dan 7:18 KJV)
Philip
“Then why does it take over a thousand years to defeat Satan?”
I assume you mean from Christ’s return until the end of the thousand years in Revelation, when Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire. Really, there is no thousand year delay in defeating Satan, because he is defeated at Christ’s return, and imprisoned in the bottomless pit along with his followers. Then, he is released from the bottomless pit at the end of the thousand years, shortly before the second resurrection and last judgement, when he is destroyed.
“Why doesn’t he simply do it, and get it over with? Why wait a “thousand years?””
I’m afraid that’s a question that you need to ask God, not me. Sometimes He does things for reasons that He doesn’t see fit to tell us, or that we don’t understand. One thing we can say for certain is that the answer can’t be because God is unable to destroy Satan until that time, since God is sovereign over all, including Satan. So, I’m sure He must have a good reason for letting Satan do what is prophesied.
“Are you familiar with these verses?”
Yes, but what about them exactly are you referring to? Just that Satan is an enemy of Christ? I don’t disagree with that, I just don’t think he has any power to oppose Christ, or Christ’s church. In fact, just the opposite is true, Christ has full power over Satan, and Christ’s church, when acting in his name, can exercise that power to. The prime examples of that are that both Christ and his disciples are recorded casting out demons through this power in the New Testament.
The ones in this world who really need to fear the power of Satan are those who aren’t fully protected by Christ’s power, whether they are unbelievers, or simply Christians who aren’t being wary and/or obedient.
“If you had known and understood that passage, and/or the two previous verses, prior to posting this, we could have moved onto other points of disagreement.”
I do know that passage and understand it. I’m not disputing Satan is an enemy, just a powerless enemy. Now, if you understand the parable of the tares, it might shed some light on your previous question about why God delays the destruction of Satan (and the accompanying judgement of the unrighteous). Tares look just like wheat until harvest time approaches, then their tops darken and you can easily tell them apart. So, perhaps God is waiting because he wants the difference between the church and the world to be just as undeniably clear to everyone before He judges the world. That does seem to be a theme in Revelation, with the mark of the beast and the seal of God dividing the believers from the rest of the world very distinctly. There are plenty of tares sitting in pews looking like Christians when the times are good, but by the time of persecution, only the truly faithful will remain.
“Sorta. I suspect the early Saints, like Stephen and James, were carrying the “whole armor of God” at the time the children of Satan—those that controlled Jerusalem—murdered them. For some reason, I also suspect that murdering them might be considered having “power over them.””
No, I don’t think that is having power over them, at least from a spiritual viewpoint. This verse should illustrate what I mean:
“4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.”
(Luke 12:4-5)
Satan and his minions can torment us and, yes even kill us, but they have no power to destroy our souls. Only God cast us into hell, Satan cannot do that, so we should have no fear of him or grant him any undue power. If he torments us, he does us a favor by storing up rewards for us in heaven for our perseverance, and even if he kills us, he is rewarding us by sending us to be with Christ, as Paul said in Philippians 1 :
“21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”
Yes.
>>> Really, there is no thousand year delay in defeating Satan, because he is defeated at Christ’s return, and imprisoned in the bottomless pit along with his followers. Then, he is released from the bottomless pit at the end of the thousand years, shortly before the second resurrection and last judgement, when he is destroyed.<<<
I cannot find your interpretation anywhere in the scripture. Would you please show your scriptural references where it says that Satan was defeated at Christ's return?
I wrote: “Why doesn’t he simply do it, and get it over with? Why wait a “thousand years?””
You replied: I’m afraid that’s a question that you need to ask God, not me.
You took my question out of context. That was a legitimate question in response to your insinuation that Satan had no power to oppose Christ, which I cannot find anywhere in the scripture. You should be able to back up you claim with scripture, instead of asking me to ask God. Besides, I am reasonably sure that God would tell me you made it up, because it is not in his Word.
>>>One thing we can say for certain is that the answer can’t be because God is unable to destroy Satan until that time, since God is sovereign over all, including Satan. So, I’m sure He must have a good reason for letting Satan do what is prophesied.<<<
Which is it? Does Satan have the power to oppose Christ, or not? Please post supporting scripture if you respond in the negative.
>>>Yes, but what about them [verses] exactly are you referring to?<<<
You claimed that Satan had no power to oppose Christ, and I showed you two verses that disputed your claim. For example, in Acts 13:10: if Satan could not "pervert the right ways of the Lord," then why did Paul state that he could?
>>>Just that Satan is an enemy of Christ? I don’t disagree with that, I just don’t think he has any power to oppose Christ, or Christ’s church.<<<
You must be reading a different bible that I have been reading for the better part of four decades. Satan and his angels (his children) are the ones who are and have been opposing the church from the beginning. No one else has been opposing the church.
>>> In fact, just the opposite is true, Christ has full power over Satan, and Christ’s church, when acting in his name, can exercise that power to. The prime examples of that are that both Christ and his disciples are recorded casting out demons through this power in the New Testament.<<<
They did not defeat Satan. They cast out the demons in some of Satan's children? Since then billions of people have been negatively affected by Satan, in one manner or another.
>>>The ones in this world who really need to fear the power of Satan are those who aren’t fully protected by Christ’s power, whether they are unbelievers, or simply Christians who aren’t being wary and/or obedient.<<<
How is that any different than my original claims in my thread you pulled this argument from? This is the thread:
They Shall Beat Their Swords Into Plowshares!
My arguments are near the end of the post, and begin as follows:
"The kingdom of God (aka, the Church) has grown significantly over the centuries. But there has been an obstacle to growth and the associated "healing of the nations," called Satan. The nations, and the kingdom of God, have had to contend with Satan, all this time."
These are related excerpts:
" Recall that all of Satan's powers were not destroyed in the first century; only that he was 'bound" so he would not be able to "deceive the nations" for a long time . . . Satan retained all other powers over men's lives that led many men to destroy and plunder; and he will maintain that power until he is, first, released from prison at the end of his long, "thousand year" imprisonment (which I believe has already happened;) and is then defeated and destroyed."
The "beloved city" and the "camp of the saints" denote the Church; and the "breadth" of the earth is the entire earth. Satan is going after the Church (of course,) and I believe he is doing it now.
What does it mean for Satan to "deceive the nations." I believe it means that Satan, once free, is able to deceive all (except the Christians of the kingdom) into believing that evil is, in fact, good (and good is evil.) We see this on a continual basis, where activities once abhorred as evil, are accepted as normal; and we have been seeing this, in one manner or another, for the better part of a century.
>>>I’m not disputing Satan is an enemy, just a powerless enemy. <<<
Then I recommend you revisit the scriptures. According to Revelation 20, Satan had power to deceive the nations prior to Christ's return; and he has that power, again, now that he has been released from prison:
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. . ." (Rev 20:2-3 KJV)
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (Rev 20:7-8 KJV)
>>>Now, if you understand the parable of the tares, it might shed some light on your previous question about why God delays the destruction of Satan (and the accompanying judgement of the unrighteous). Tares look just like wheat until harvest time approaches, then their tops darken and you can easily tell them apart. So, perhaps God is waiting because he wants the difference between the church and the world to be just as undeniably clear to everyone before He judges the world. That does seem to be a theme in Revelation, with the mark of the beast and the seal of God dividing the believers from the rest of the world very distinctly. There are plenty of tares sitting in pews looking like Christians when the times are good, but by the time of persecution, only the truly faithful will remain.<<<
If you believe that, then how is that consistent with some of your earlier statements? For example, you stated earlier that Christ defeated Satan on the cross; and now are admitting that "God delayed the destruction of Satan," which is an "eloquent" way of saying, "Christ did not defeat Satan on the cross." You are now confirming one of my original statements that you presented earlier as "preposterous," whether you intended to, or not.
>>>No, I don’t think that is having power over them, at least from a spiritual viewpoint. This verse should illustrate what I mean: (Luke 12:4-5)<<
You didn't see "Luke 12:4-5" in my comment? This is what I wrote:
". . . the "only" consequence of the Saints losing their lives (rather than their souls) is that Christ no longer had their services to help spread his Word."
No matter. Your original argument in this context was that Satan would have no power over them if they had the "whole armor of God;" and I showed you that Satan did, indeed, have power over them: but not power over their souls.
>>>Satan and his minions can torment us and, yes even kill us, but they have no power to destroy our souls.<<<
This is the sum of Satan's power, in a nutshell: he has the ability to deceive us, which could lead to the destruction of our souls. Recall that the earliest church had powers, or had seen powers, from the Holy Spirit that we can barely imagine. Yet, Satan was still was able to deceive some of them, as Hebrews 6 implies:
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6 KJV)
>>> Only God cast us into hell, Satan cannot do that, so we should have no fear of him or grant him any undue power.<<<
How do you think he deceives the nations? Someone is granting him "undue power."
>>>If he torments us, he does us a favor by storing up rewards for us in heaven for our perseverance, and even if he kills us, he is rewarding us by sending us to be with Christ…<<<
We as Christians should know all that. But it has nothing to do with my original post, here:
They Shall Beat Their Swords Into Plowshares!
Philip
1 Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.This is a pattern that occurs many times in scripture, so many that you wonder if something is wrong if the order is reversed. For instance the treasure and the pearl in Matthew 13, the treasure is Israel and the pearl is the Church. Reverse the order and the pattern is lost. Since the spiritual man is second, there doesn't seem to be any firstborn sons in Christ's genealogy.
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