Posted on 01/16/2015 3:36:32 PM PST by SJackson
I expect that is not an accident.
_______________
that is what I thought
I've seen translations (by western scholars) saying 'raisins or grapes', since what's on offer in paradise, according to the Koran is meant to be food and drink, more sensual than sexual.
However, the Arabic word (in this context) which has also been used in Persian post-Islamic invasion, is "houri or huri" (pronounced hoo-ree) in paradise. It means a woman of very white or fair skin complexion with very dark eyes - very pure beings, maybe akin to angels.
The almost male equivalent of huri is a Gholam or Ghulam; again an Arabic word meaning a young male servant. Muslim women in paradise are promised only 1 of them. But it's unclear if a Gholam is meant to offer sexual pleasure or just be a servant.
In any case, most muslim religious leaders don't go into detailed explanations to their followers; the spin they put on it is 72 virgins not grapes/raisins.
lol, immigration?
I believe it’s “raisins.” Nevertheless, there is nothing “heavenly” about feral inventions.
The feral translation used to recruit ignorant, horny young feral animals is “virgins.”
46 posted on 1/14/2015 4:00:14 PM by melancholy
There is no doubt they use the word "virgins" to recruit... (put a spin on it as I was saying in #63). But that doesn't mean it is baseless. What is the Arabic word for raisins or grapes?
Two additional points:
1. The concept of houri/huri ("virgins") precise word in Arabic alphabet حورية (aka "nymphs") makes much sense when you look at the context of 'reward' in Islamic paradise (not heaven) in afterlife - Bodily (carnal) pleasures & appetites. Both sensual & sexual, even if we were going to take the more sensual connotations in the Koran.
2. The word houri/huri is actually mentioned in the Koran and several Hadiths as well. There is also descriptions of these "beings". Grapes or raisins don't match that description, as far as I can tell.
Always trying to enter through the back door.
Neither my Hippocrene desk dictionary, nor Schultz, Krahl & Reuschal’s Standard Arabic were any help at getting an etymological lock on the word. Do you recommend any other text for English speakers?
At Petland we care.
Check out these sites and explore external links from each site - the idea or translation of “raisins/white grapes” seems to be mostly based on Christoph Luxenberg’s assertion that the word Hur or Hoor which appears in the Koran (Quran) is Syro-Aramaic in origins and not Arabic or classical Arabic: http://houri.askdefinebeta.com/ (this one is a good link for etymology, I think) — http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/jan/12/books.guardianreview5 — http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Houri#cite_note-0 — http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins#cite_note-Sura78_33-20
Do you read arabic script?
Doesn’t everyone?
Many Moslems believe that many things mentioned in Hadith and books of tradition and Mohammed's life are nothing but agendas to intimidate people into submission by islamic tyrants and now terrorists. Moslems believe in the unchanged Qura'an. (Death penalty for changing one letter! Of course!) But no death penalty for lies and misinterpretation by lousy "sheikhs" issuing fatwas and terrorists chopping innocent people's heads!
1- No "72" as a number and no word "virgin(s)" mentioned in Quran. The 72/70/700/7000 virgins in paradise as a reward for the true believers came only in heritage books "كتب التراث والسيرة" written by people after hundreds of years of beginning of Islam, obviously nonsense. Only in Quran "حور العين" , which is "beautiful women," virgins or not, who diverted the eyes, eye candy, if you will.
(9) كَذَٰلِكَ وَزَوَّجْنَاهُم بِحُورٍ عِينٍ ( سورة الدخان , Ad-Dukhan, Chapter #44, Verse #54)
(10) مُتَّكِئِينَ عَلَىٰ سُرُرٍ مَّصْفُوفَةٍ ۖ وَزَوَّجْنَاهُم بِحُورٍ عِينٍ ( سورة الطور , At-tur, Chapter #52, Verse #20)
Gholam or Ghulam; again an Arabic word meaning a young male servant. Muslim women in paradise are promised only 1 of them. But it's unclear if a Gholam is meant to offer sexual pleasure or just be a servant.
Not totally true. If we hire "kids" to cut our lawns or some such, it doesn't mean that the word "kids" mean anything other than "young persons," unless one adds a description or context. It's exactly the same in Arabic.
2- "غلمان" was mentioned once in the context YOU meant as domestic servants: (غلمان = plural of غُلَامٌ = boys)
(1) ۞ وَيَطُوفُ عَلَيْهِمْ غِلْمَانٌ لَّهُمْ كَأَنَّهُمْ لُؤْلُؤٌ مَّكْنُونٌ ( سورة الطور , At-tur, Chapter #52, Verse #24)
While other verses mention it with the true meaning (غُلَامٌ = boy < 18 years of age) :
(7) يَا زَكَرِيَّا إِنَّا نُبَشِّرُكَ بِغُلَامٍ اسْمُهُ يَحْيَىٰ لَمْ نَجْعَل لَّهُ مِن قَبْلُ سَمِيًّا ( سورة مريم , Maryam, Chapter #19, Verse #7)
(8) قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَكَانَتِ امْرَأَتِي عَاقِرًا وَقَدْ بَلَغْتُ مِنَ الْكِبَرِ عِتِيًّا ( سورة مريم , Maryam, Chapter #19, Verse #8)
(9) قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا ( سورة مريم 19#Maryam, Chapter #19, Verse x)
(10) قَالَتْ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا ( سورة مريم , Maryam, Chapter #19, Verse #20)
The last one is a reference to Virgin Mary. Translation: "she said I had a غُلَامٌ [= boy] and no human touched me and I was not a sinner." A CLEAR REFERENCE TO THE BIRTH OF JESUS.
In Islam, Jesus is considered a Prophet, NOT a domestic servant. Many stupid Moslems don't know that, according to Islam, if a Moslem doesn't believe in Jesus, Moses, etc. as Prophets, HE IS CONSIDERED AN INFIDEL.
You asked: what are "raisins and grapes" in Arabic? They are: زبيب and عنب, respectively.
Happy MLK day! 😛
True, there is no specific number, ie 72, in the Quran. That number came from a lesser known Hadith about what Mohammad allegedly had said "'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives..." ; and agree Hadiths are largely unreliable. The fact the specified number isn't mentioned in the Quran is in two of the links I posted in #71 as well. Though the number 72 was not what I was disputing.
Only in Quran "حور العين" , which is "beautiful women," virgins or not, who diverted the eyes, eye candy, if you will.
حور العين and حور combined are mentioned 4 times in the Quran, as far as I know. Two of which you quoted; the others are in Surah Rahman chapter 55 verse number 72, and Surah Wa’qiah Chapter 56 verse number 22. To get the total picture, it's good to look at the verses before & after the main verse, or read the entire chapter. In Arabic with English translation verse by verse for each mentioned Surah and chapters here -- here -- here -- here
Equally, the translation is not always that of a dark-eyed, fair complexion 'women' or 'maidens' or 'nymphs'. حور العين is also translated as genderless companions, who are "pure" (hence, I think partly why commonly interpreted as 'virgins') -- here is a list of accepted and controversial English translations for the one verse you quoted كَذَٰلِكَ وَزَوَّجْنَاهُم بِحُورٍ عِينٍ as an example.
Also, apparently all believers (righteous) who are therefore in Islamic paradise get them, not just Shuhada (Martyrs).
I know Gholam is singular form of Gholaman which is plural. And as you say the plural Gholaman (غلمان) is mentioned in the Quran. Gholam (singular) also has a few meanings in Arabic; not according to me, but according to dictionaries I can find online. It can mean youth, boy, valet, page, servant and even slave. Depends on context I should think; Jesus was not the context I was referring to.
But more to the point of what I was saying in post #63 and further in #66, the latter in response to YOUR words from another thread which LucyT posted here in #65, was the concept of so-called 'virgins' is not baseless and is not about 'raisins' or 'grapes' as you were clearly saying you believe it is. كَذَٰلِكَ وَزَوَّجْنَاهُم بِحُورٍ عِينٍ (Thus. And We will marry them to fair women with large, [beautiful] eyes.)
Gholam or Ghulam; again an Arabic word meaning a young male servant.
I answered in #74:
Not totally true. If we hire "kids" to cut our lawns or some such, it doesn't mean that the word "kids" mean anything other than "young persons," unless one adds a description or context. It's exactly the same in Arabic.
Then you wrote in #75:
according to dictionaries I can find online. It can mean youth, boy, valet, page, servant and even slave. Depends on context I should think;
It looks like you agree with me that "the context" is key.
...Jesus was not the context I was referring to.
I know. I gave you that context as an example to explain that your statement above, in #63, is a blanket statement that isn't correct without a context or description attached to it.
Thank you for the URLs. I noticed that the "Sahih International's" English translation is poor, in general. One item was most interesting; however, drinking wine/alcohol IS allowed in Qura'an, to the chagrin of sheikhs, fatwas and terrorists! Islamic scholars should demand their execution for lying about what Qura'an says about the subject. In another part describing paradise, Qura'an said: "...rivers of wine flowing..."
Hell, that's the biggest bar, ever! You can drink all you want and take a swim to boot! Hahaha
Somehow, I couldn't copy the Arabic text. Here's the URL:
http://quran.com/52/23
52:23
Sahih International
They will exchange with one another a cup [of wine] wherein [results] no ill speech or commission of sin.
Have a good day.
Yeah, lol.. they should have said rivers of grape juice instead of wine so that they’re fully conscious when married off to pure raisins ;)
I can only speak of the Muslims I have known— they all seemed to love all those things prohibited in Dar al Islam—when here but so far as in their home country they were strictly DADT.Like that Lebanese beauty queen in fear for her life no doubt she insisted the Israeli was solely responsible.
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