Skip to comments.Mormon Science and Space Doctrines [Kolobian cosmology]
Posted on 07/16/2012 5:32:19 AM PDT by Colofornian
This list is great to share with Believing Mormons because most of these teachings have solid references or are still taught from the pulpit. It's a great conversation starter on the silly side of Mormonism.
I'm sure you've heard most of these at one time or another.
The list is divided into two sections - Mormon Church teachings that have documented citations, and those still missing.
- God says the correct name for our Sun is "Shinehah," which is the name He gave it. Also, the correct name of the moon is "Olea." See Abraham 3:13.
- God lives on a giant crystal ball. See D&C 130:6-8.
- God's home planet orbits a star named "Kolob." See Abraham 3:3
- Kolob is "the great governing star of our universe" and "the residence of God." See Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith's "Church History and Modern Revelation" Volume 3, Page 60.
- The Sun "borrows it's light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash.. which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars.. and receives light from the revolutions of Kolob." This quote comes directly from the Book of Abraham, Facsimile Number 2, Explanation for Figure 5. Also see: http://nowscape.com/mormon/kolob-defined.htm
- The Sun is a celestialized world, where its inhabitants are perfected. The Prophet Brigham Young taught in General Conference: "So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized." See Journal of Discourses, 13:271. Also see Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1 Page 88: "Earth to be Celestialized Sun"
- The Earth will undergo a perfection after the millenium and become a huge seer stone of glass. People living on the Earth after this transformation will be able to look into the Earth and see things happening on "inferior" kingdoms (planets). See D&C 130:9
- God's home planet, Kolob, is at the center of our Galaxy, which all other stars rotate around. See Clark, J. Reuben Jr., "Behold the Lamb of God," page 46, "Kolob, the Governor"
- The Earth actually has a spirit, just like we do. It had to be baptized (the flood) to fulfill all righteousness, just like us. It will also have to receive the baptism of fire (at the second coming of Christ) in order to receive its exaltation and become a celestialized world. See Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith's "Doctrines of Salvation," Volume 1, pages 73-74, page 87 "Celestial Destiny of the Earth." See also Moses Chapter 7:48-49, 56 where the Earth's spirit speaks with Enoch.
- When Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden, the Earth was closely orbiting Kolob, like God's home planet. But when Adam and Eve fell, so did the Earth and it was hurled across the cosmos and placed in orbit around our sun in this planetary system. After the Millenium, the Earth will return to its rightful place near God, orbiting Kolob. See Church Ensign, March 1997, Page 16 "The Book of Abraham: A Most Remarkable Book," and Journal of Discourses, 17:143 and Journal of Discourses 7:163
- Black Holes are "outer darkness" where God will cast those sons of perdition that deny His spirit. This includes all Ex-Mormons. See "The Creation," page 146 and D&C 101:90-91
- The light of Christ is the light coming from the Sun and the Moon. See D&C 88:7. (The "light" refered to may very well be literal, as well as figurative and symbolic, speaking about Christ's influence.)
- Kolob is the North Star, according to Joseph Smith. Taught by LDS Church Institute Instructor, but still need reference.
- Joseph Smith taught that the Earth was created like a cake, from ingredients of different ages. Just like a cake was made from wheat that is a year old, eggs from a few days and milk fresh this morning from the cow, so too, the Earth is made from parts of different ages. See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 350-352.
- God created everything twice, just like Plato said. First there was a spiritual creation, and then there was a physical creation. See Moses 3:5, 6:51 and Endowment Ceremony.
- God did not create the physical Earth Himself. Actually, all of us helped out. Under the direction of Jesus and Adam, we created the Earth. Some of us created trees, others created rocks and still others created animals, based on God's blueprints. See Abraham 3:22-24, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pages 74-75.
- God can't get his story straight about which order he created the Earth. The order of the days of creation in Moses contradicts the order given in the Temple Endowment, which are both inspired truth. The third day (creation of life, vegetation and seeds) and fourth day (creation of light, moon and stars) of creation are switched in the temple ceremony, whereas Moses matches the order of Genesis. See Moses 2:9-19 and Temple Ceremony (all versions).
- God created the Earth first, then He created the Sun, Moon and stars and the rest of the universe. On the first day of creation God creates the earth (see Moses 2:2-5). On the second day, God creates earth's oceans and the atmosphere (see Moses 2:6-8). On the third day, God separates the land from the water and creates vegetation, fruits and trees (see Moses 2:9-13). Finally, on the fourth day, God creates the Sun, Moon and stars (see Moses 2:14-19).
- Mars and Venus have dry rivers that match perfectly with rivers on Earth, proving that parts of all three were "organized" from parts of a same old planet. Scientists say the moon was formed out of the Earth, why not the other planets too? Still need reference. Taught by LDS Church apostle during stake fireside, but still need reference.
- There are human beings on many other planets that look just like us because they too, are in the image of God. See New Era Article "People on Other Worlds" April 1971.
- UFOs are from the City of Enoch, that was raised to heaven because the citizens attained perfection. City of Enoch story is in the Pearl of Great Price, but UFO connection made by LDS Church Seminary teacher. Still need reference.
- Joseph Smith taught that the Ten Lost Tribes had gone to the North Pole, as it used to be warm, but God divided the Earth in two and they wound up between Texas and Florida. Then God scooped them up, leaving a big hole called the Gulf of Mexico. And these millions of Hebrews are today on this island floating around in the solar system, but we can't see them because God has them flying at an angle where the telescopes can't pick them up. But one day the island will crash back into the Gulf and the earth will reel to and fro like a drunken man. See http://www.code-co.com/rcf/mhistdoc/enoch.htm for many scriptural and Joseph Smith prophetic references.
- UFOs are from the lost ten tribes, which live underneath the north pole. As explained in the Doctrine and Covenants, these tribes will return by flight from the north in the Last Days. See D&C 110:11 and 133:26.
- Earth is the most evil of all of God's worlds in the Universe. See Moses 7:36
- God sent Christ here because it was the only world that was wicked enough to kill Jesus. Common teaching from LDS Church Seminary teachers, but still need reference.
- All of the other planets in the universe with God's children have prophets who preach to them about Christ's life, death and resurrection on Earth. Just as our prophets tell us that other worlds have human life on them, so to, true prophets on other worlds teach the life of Christ as he lived it on this Earth. See November 1985 Ensign "Is Jesus Christ the Savior of all the worlds God created or just ours?"
- Mars is populated by beings who, like us, were created in the image of God, so they look like us. Except they are waiting to hear about the Gospel, which we will preach to them during the millenium. Supposedly came from early church conference address by church apostle, but still need reference.
- God created all the planets in our solar system with the explicit "law" to support human life. The other planets in our solar system are already populated or are able to support human life. See "The Essential Orson Pratt, p.373"
- Lucifer only did to Adam and Eve "the same thing which has been done in "OTHER WORLDS," according to the temple endowment. This shows Mormon doctrine embraces the idea of life on other planets.
- "Thus the Lord has given us the information regarding his creations, and how he has made many earths, for there never was a beginning, never was a time when man did not exist somewhere in the universe, and when the time came for this earth to be peopled the Lord, our God, transplanted upon it from some other earth, the life which is found here." Improvement Era, Vol 23:389-393; Joseph Fielding Smith; "The Origin and Destiny of Man"; 1919
- All spirit is matter, just "more fine or pure" form of matter which we cannot measure. See D&C 131:7.
- The Mormon God cannot destroy or create matter, he can only "reorganize" it. So the Solar System was formed from other previous creations. See Temple Endowment, The Contributor, Vol. 4, p. 257, and Joseph Smith As Scientist, p. 14.
- God has cursed water and turned it over to Satan to control. Satan controls bodies of water, especially rivers. See D&C 61:13-19
- All matter in the universe chooses to obey God's law. If God had not sacrificed his Only Begotten Son to fulfill the atonement and satisfy the law, then matter would not have continued to respect God and matter would not have continued to obey Him. This is supposedly from ther church's official publication "Jesus the Christ" but is often taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.
- Light is the sole medium which God has for governing the universe. See Journal of Discourses, Volume 15:232
- The Earth is the spirit world, where the billions of deceased spirits now live. In fact, there are spirits all around us right now, yet we cannot see them and they cannot see us, thanks to "the veil." [This is so much like a few Star Trek episodes!] Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors - still need reference.
- When babies are born, "the veil" is still very thin and as newborns they can see spirits, remember the "pre-existence" and still hear God directly. It's only later after months trapped in a physical body that "the veil" begins to close over their spiritual awareness. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors - still need reference.
- Just before people die, "the veil" once again lifts and they start to see again all the spirits and angels all around us. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors - still need reference.
- God lives in the fourth dimension, which explains why he can see everything, be everywhere and know all time. In fact, as three-dimensional beings, if we could visit flatland (a two-dimensional universe) the inhabitants would think we were Gods. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors - still need reference.
- The Holy of Holies in the Salt Lake Temple actually contains a portal to the celestial realm at Kolob. Mormon folklore, source reference needed.
Time and Time Travel
- God travels much faster than the speed of light. God travels at the "speed of thought." Very common Mormon belief, source reference needed.
- A day for God is like a thousand years on Earth. This is because it takes a thousand Earth years for God's home planet Kolob to rotate around once on its axis. See Abraham 3:4-5
- God lives by "celestial time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit" See Book of Abraham, Facsimile Number 2, Explanation for Figure 1.
- Adam and Eve living in the Garden of Eden were "subject to Kolob Time." See Abraham 5:13
- Seer stones allow us to see past, present and future events at any location. All of those that make it to the Celestial Kingdom will have their own seer stone, to review any moment or location in the universe. See D&C 130:10-11
- If it wasn't for "Cherubum and a Flaming Sword" in front of the tree of life, Adam and Eve would have lived "forever" after eating the forbidden fruit. See Alma 12:21, 42:2-3 and Moses 4:31
- A righteous man's "time" on this Earth is not "cut short," according to the D&C 122:9.
- Christ's atonement was eternal, reached back in time and retro-actively saved the faithful who lived and died before the event occurred, yet they were told to wait for his coming in order to be saved. (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, pp. 64, 65).
- God showed his temporal prophets "everything from the beginning to the end of time", as accounts record in the Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon. See stories of Nephi, Moses and Abraham. Also see D&C 101:32-34.
- The earth's lifetime is divided into "dispensations" of time. The correct name for our current dispensation of time is "Adam-ondi-Ahman" which Joseph Smith explained to mean "The place or land of God where Adam dwelt." (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 19-20)
- Right from the scriptures, the Earth's total temporal existence is 7,000 years. See D&C 77:6
- There's more gold and mineral riches in Utah than the rest of the world combined. It's hidden from you because of a lack of faith. There's no need to go to California to pan for Gold, because God will reveal these riches to you when you are righteous enough. This was preached from the pulpit at the Tabernacle by the Prophet of the Church. See Journal of Discourses 1:264.
- Fossilized dinosaur bones are from dinosaurs that lived on other worlds that were destroyed to create the Earth. They were living creatures, but not from this Earth. (See Creation above) Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.
- Carbon dating is phony because God has altered the Earth so many times with processes we can't understand or measure. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.
- The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Noah was taken to the Old World by the Flood. This teaching was given by Joseph Smith and is still accepted as true doctrine. Given this teaching, Mormons have to accept the flood as a global phenomenon. (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, "Adam-Ondi-Ahman" p. 19-20)
- Prophet preaches from the Tabernacle pulpit in General Conference that "Gold and silver grow, and so does every other kind of metal, the same as the hair upon my head, or the wheat in the field.." See JoD 1:209.
- Adam and Eve did not have blood in their bodies in the Garden of Eden. The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith taught: "Adam [and, by extension, all of the animal creation] had no blood in his veins before the fall. Blood is the life of the mortal body." After Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, blood became "the life-giving fluid in Adam's body, and was inherited by his posterity. Blood was not only the life of the mortal body, but also contained in it the seeds of death which bring the mortal body to its end. Previously the life force in Adam's body, which is likewise the sustaining power in every immortal body, was the spirit." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Man: His Origin and Destiny (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1954), pp. 362, 376-77.
- Adam lived nearly 1,000 years and the prophets used to live hundreds of years because they lived the Word of Wisdom perfectly and had more pure blood in their veins. Over time, the human race has polluted blood more and more. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.
- Adam did not have a navel, Eve did. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.
- Mormonism directly explains the creation of at least one race by God. Mormon scripture taught that Cain was so evil, God cursed him and his lineage with black skin, creating the African race. See Moses 7:22. Mormon Doctrine explains: "Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those sprits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born though his lineage. He became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition. As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones in eternity, a fact which will enable him to rule over Satan." Mormon Doctrine, Page 102.
- When Native Americans become Mormons, their skin turns white. The Prophet Spencer W. Kimball taught the principle of this process in a General Conference address. He stated how the "Indians are fast becoming a white and delightsome people." He said, "The [Indian] children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation... These young [Indian] members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated." LDS General Conference, October 1960, Spencer W. Kimball, (Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-3). Also see the original Mormon prophesy of this effect in 2 Nephi 30:6.
- Drinking tea may tan your stomach similarly to what happens in a teapot. (Missionary teaching technique taken seriously by some).
- All races, including Blacks, Asians, Indians etc.. will be resurrected in their perfect state as white Caucasians. Taught by LDS Church Institute instructors. Still need reference.
- Our Spirit bodies look exactly the same as our physical bodies, even before birth. In the book of Mormon, Christ appeared (and touched the stones) to the Brother of Jared in the BoM in his spirit form, which appeared the same as his future body would thousands of years later when he was born. See Ether 3:15-17
- Resurrection is simply a priesthood ordinance not yet revealed, but that will be revealed after the millenium. See LDS Church News Archives, Saturday, January 15, 2000, "Resurrection is a priesthood ordinance. 'As to how the dead are raised, we know that it is by the power of Jesus Christ because He holds the keys of death, hell, and resurrection,' said Brother Matthews. '. . . President Brigham Young and Elder Erastus Snow taught that the resurrection will be conducted much as other things are done in the kingdom, by those in authority and by delegation.'"
- Resurrected bodies do not have blood but instead rely on the spirit to stay alive. The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith taught: "Our Father in heaven and our Savior and all those who have passed through the resurrection have physical bodies of flesh and bones, but their bodies are quickened by spirit and not by blood, hence they are spiritual bodies and not blood bodies. The immortal body is quickened by spirit, but the mortal body is quickened by blood... . Now when Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all other creations." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 76-77).
I pulled out verse 8: 8 The place where God resides is a great aUrim and Thummim
And...alas, I've pointed to the "planet" Kolob in previous posts...I should have been more Mormon accurate...in that they regard Kolob as a "star" -- and that God's planet is close to that star:
From the article: - God's home planet orbits a star named "Kolob." See Abraham 3:3 - Kolob is "the great governing star of our universe" and "the residence of God." See Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith's "Church History and Modern Revelation" Volume 3, Page 60. - The Sun "borrows it's light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash.. which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars.. and receives light from the revolutions of Kolob." This quote comes directly from the Book of Abraham, Facsimile Number 2, Explanation for Figure 5. Also see: http://nowscape.com/mormon/kolob-defined.htm - The Sun is a celestialized world, where its inhabitants are perfected. The Prophet Brigham Young taught in General Conference: "So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized." See Journal of Discourses, 13:271. Also see Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1 Page 88: "Earth to be Celestialized Sun" - The Earth will undergo a perfection after the millenium and become a huge seer stone of glass. People living on the Earth after this transformation will be able to look into the Earth and see things happening on "inferior" kingdoms (planets). See D&C 130:9 - God's home planet, Kolob, is at the center of our Galaxy, which all other stars rotate around. See Clark, J. Reuben Jr., "Behold the Lamb of God," page 46, "Kolob, the Governor"
Also...from the article, showing that the Mormon god can't get his narrative straight: - God can't get his story straight about which order he created the Earth. The order of the days of creation in Moses contradicts the order given in the Temple Endowment, which are both inspired truth. The third day (creation of life, vegetation and seeds) and fourth day (creation of light, moon and stars) of creation are switched in the temple ceremony, whereas Moses matches the order of Genesis. See Moses 2:9-19 and Temple Ceremony (all versions).
This is based upon Lds "scripture" Doctrine and Covenants 93:29,33...which says that spirits and intelligences are as eternal as God is: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal... (LDS "scripture" Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33)
Per the Mormon narrative, you started off as "goo" somewhere...a "spirit" (D&C 93:29,33)...You are just as "eternal" (as in eternal past) as God & Jesus...you haven't "lived" any less than them (past-wise)
Then you were spirit-born to a man who became God & one of his goddess wives...near "Kolob"...wherever that is...
Oh, and Lucifer -- Satan -- was your "elder spirit bro"
Then you were sent here to inhabit a body...
If you don't become a temple Mormon so you can eternally progress to become a future god like Mitt Romney (run your world; create your own spirit kids; receive worship & prayer & glory from them as a "god")...
Then you can be Necro-baptized by proxy in a spirit world where you & everybody goes (even the best Mormons go there, too, for a while)
And Lds "prophet" Woodruff said the signers of the Declaration of Independence came to him (their spirits) @ the St. George, Utah temple in the 1870s and begged him to necro-baptize them all!
And if the above wasn't enough, if you look under the "Spirit" entry in LDS church-published Bible Dictionary, 1979 (p. 776) -- in back of Holy Bible, you'll find this entry:
"That is, ALL forms of living things--man, beast and vegetation--existed as individual spirits, before any form of life existed upon the earth. The spirit is in the likeness of the physical body, as demonstrated in Gen. 2:5; 1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15-16; D&C 77:2; 129; Moses 3:4-7. Furthermore, all spirit is matter,but is more refined and pure than mortal element (D&C 131:7)."
So. If you take the infinite regression teaching of the Mormon church -- infinitely regressing, we ALL have supposedly "existed" in some form -- [again, see @ Doctrine & Covenant 93:29,33 above...this teaches WE are as eternal (past) as God/Jesus, etc. -- & that spirits & intelligences & elements ALWAYS existed!!!
...and couple it with this above eternal regression teaching...that vegetation & beasts were co-existent alongside us as fellow "spirits" once upon a time...and that we all have ALWAYS existed...
Sometimes esoteric macabre teachings that you think are so FAR out there...are actually mainstream Mormonism!
I recall an article from the Lds church owned Deseret News, where the specially appointed columnist dealing with issues within the Media commented: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints likewise takes no definitive view of when the embryo or fetus acquires a soul... [Source: LDS beliefs in Focus
I said then: Let me get this straight: Lds think man has been...
(1) as eternal as its god that intelligences self-exist from eternity past (LDS Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33).
(2) Then somehow these intelligences, who were beginningless, had beginnings as spirit babies of a god & goddess in some pre-existence.
(3) Then the spirit baby fully matured in the pre-existence.
(4) Then it came to pass that this spirit baby passed down an earthly birth canal. This time to a second set of parents (humans on earth).
(5) Oh. But the LDS general authorities, according to their own complex belief system, conclude that it takes no definitive view of when... this intelligence-baby spirit-fully matured spirit-now-embryo" has acquired a soul.
Oh. Just Oh.
(If these entities "birthed" in heaven have no soul, what are they?)
Perhaps that explains Mitt Romney...I suppose he was born soulless as a spirit on a planet near the star Kolob!
Why do you print this kind of stuff?
Shining a light on a dark corner.
Give it a rest. Nobody in the church even thinks about this obscure stuff, much less preaches about it. You really should consider counseling - maybe someone could help you overcome your unhealthy obsession.
1) Do any Mormons take this seriously?
2) Is this stuff wackier than Marxism? (Bears on electoral choice!)
Why do you print this crap? Every rational person knows Mormonism is made up of fairy tales and wackjob theories. The overall effect is to smear Romney. If Obummer the marxist gets reelected we will have a Mormon wonderland. Let the religion stuff rest until after the election. I’ll be Romney in his heart of hearts doesn’t believe all this gibberish!
All: #1: Note: JusttheTruth is Lds.
#2: Some of this "stuff" is Lds "scriptures," Mormon "prophet" revelations which JusttheTruth attempts to write off as "obscure..."
(If the Mormon gods' revelations from D&C 130 & 93 & 88:7 & 131:7 & 61:13-19 & Book of Abraham 3:3 & Moses 2:14-19 & other verses are meant to fade into obscurity, why did the Mormon god reveal them? And why do Mormon leaders spend so much time commenting upon all of these verses?)
#3: (Are you simply hoping this the kind of stuff doesn't get out, JusttheTruth? Are you hoping this would simply remain "obscure?")
He wants to discredit Romney.
So, he should stay home or vote third party and give Obama another vote.
Ill be Romney in his heart of hearts doesnt believe all this gibberish!
Romney elaborated on this the last election cycle...He said: "They would prefer it if I would simply distance myself from my religion, say that it is more a tradition than my personal conviction, or disavow one or another of its precepts. That I will not do. I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it. My faith is the faith of my fathers - I will be true to them and to my beliefs."
(Yes, especially the "verses" from Lds "scripture"...see post #9...and see that those Lds "scriptural" references are found in the article...plus a few more I didn't mention in post #9)
2) Is this stuff wackier than Marxism?
Well, Mormonism hasn't always been removed from Marxism. In fact, one Mormon writer says late-19th century Mormon communism helped to inspire Soviet communism!
(See chart for how has Romney's Mormonism effected his governing in Bay State & His campaign statements?)
|GOV. Romney||Mormon 'scripture' & History||Sources||Quotes|
|ObamaCare based upon RomneyCare [SoConPubbie has posted some threads the week of April 16, 2012 along these lines]. In addition, what about Romney's $50 taxpayer-subsidized abortions -- and some $0 abortions -- he permanently imposed a Planned Parenthood rep into supervision of RomneyCare? (Since he vetoed other portions of that legislation, the Planned Parenthood rep section was also something he could have vetoed). For all of the pro-abortion damage done by Romney in the Bay State, see: RomneyCare Now Funding FREE Abortions: A Disqualifier for Mitt Romneys Candidacy [Enabler Mitt]||Mitt's Mormonism embraced socialism/communism under the 'United Order' sacred commands still on the Mormon scriptures depicted to be everlasting commandments of the Mormon god||The Mormon socialistic/communistic everlasting nature of the United Order depicted in Lds scriptures Doctrine & Covenants 82:18-19 and 104:1, 48, 53.||Even Lds author George Givens described Brigham Youngs communist-built community of Orderville, Utah as pure communism: "When Brigham Young established Orderville and similar United Orders, John Taylor was less than enthusiastic. He realized that enterprises such as Orderville were pure communism and not the law of consecration. He made this plain after he became President, when in 1882 he sent an epistle to all authorities of the Church in which he bluntly stated: 'We had no example of the 'United Order' in accordance with the word of God on the subject...Our relations with the world and our own imperfections prevent the establishment of this system [i.e. the system of consecration and stewardship spoken of at times as the 'United Order'] at the present time, as was stated by Joseph in an early day, it cannot yet be carried out.'" (George W. Givens, 500 More Little-Known Facts in Mormon History, 2004, p. 169)"One of the most famous utopian books ever written was Looking Backward by Edward Bellamy, published in 1889. Some scholars believe Looking Backward had considerable influence in the making of Lenin's Soviet Russia. If this is true, then [ensuing Lds "prophet"] Lorenzo Snow and the Latter-day Saints must receive some of the credit--or blame. Hearing of the success of the United Order in Brigham City, Edward Bellamy made a special trip to Utah in 1886 to study its operation. There he spent three days with Lorenzo Snow, Brigham City's founder and forty-year resident. Impressed with the thirty to forty industries run by its 2,000 inhabitants and the vitality at that time of one of the most successful United Orders, Bellamy returned home and wrote his influential book." (500 More Little-Known Facts in Mormon History, p. 185). Way to go, 19th century Mormon leader-prophets of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor & Lorenzo Snow!!! They all unwittingly fueled Soviet Communism!|
Doesn’t seem like a very good forum for that.
Suppose someone is reading this who happens to be considering joining the Mormon church? He sees the truth about the whackjob faith, and decides to seek Christ instead. IMO, that’s a very good thing.
Because he hopes if we do, we will not trust Romney and thereby help elect Obama again.
The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created BY Him.
The lds-org is a thief of the Name and the Truth of Jesus Christ.
Just as I can’t imagine believing any of the whacky Mormon stuff, so I can’t imagine this endless obsessively obsessive obsession that Colofornian has on the subject. Notice that he doesn’t just post an endless series of anti-Mormon articles, but he also adds his own repititiously repititive data dump of links, notes and quotes.
I know I don’t have to read this stuff and I do always skip over every datadump-type post from everyone in FR. But this particular article (not the post that accompanies it but the article itself) is mildly amusing, I have to admit.
BTW, I lived and worked in Las Vegas for many years, worked with a lot of Mormons, generally found them level-headed, dependable and conservative.
All true! All True! Along with Jehovah Witnesses, Scientology, Kabala, Islam and a host of other Lucifer-inspired cults. My focus is on this country America. Obama is an avowed socialist, raised on radicalism, closet Muslim or sympathizer. We need to expel this political virus from America. Then we can work on RINO-designate Romney.
I hate say this but it’s true. I lived in Montana for 15 years around a lot of Mormons. They were some of the nicest, most conservative, conscientious people I knew (Even better than most Christians!) Saying this, I cannot in any way accept their wacky history and theology. But I am electing a President, not a theologian. Kennedy did a lot of good things while he was President, but he was an abysmal Catholic. Bill Clinton had a budget surplus while Monica was under his desk.
Once, I was walking around the lake path and saw two Mormon missionary ladies with their nametags on. I went up to them and asked "Will you be eternally pregnant and living on Kobol?".
They answered "You do know something about us", which I took for a solid 'Yes'.
They asked me if I had read the book of Mormon, to which I replied "Yes, and I was wondering why so many sections were word for word from the King James Bible?"
To that they replied, "you should talk with our elders".
I don’t want to put myself in the position of attacking anyone else’s particular religious beliefs as long as they aren’t trying to shove them down my throat at the point of a sword like the Muslims are.
AS an Christian outsider looking in, the Mormons appear to have some really uncoventional religious ideas outside the mainstream of traditional theological thinking in the west. However, they also appear to be patriotic, hard-working and very family oriented.
Right now, I’m very suspicious of any theological attacks on Mormonism as Romney is a Mormon, the candidate in waiting for the GOP and despite all his faults - and he has VERY many, is probably a much better choice than the Marxist Muslim Keynsian Kenyan imposter we have now.
Thank you for posting this. I was completely unaware of how "exotic" a belief structure this is. I have no intention of disparaging anyone's religion, but people's beliefs become issues when they seek to rule over others. Wasn't Mitt Romney a local leader (bishop?) in this religion? Was he aware of these tenets of his religion and would it have been his job to defend and spread them?
Shares some common ground with Scientology.
Indeed. And, note here, we're not talking about "mayor" or local city council. But THE leader of the free world. Where discernment and vulnerability/gullibility to deception becomes key character issues in foreign policy, dealing with Islam, etc.
Wasn't Mitt Romney a local leader (bishop?) in this religion? (Yes)
Per a daughter of another Lds bishop, "Mitt
Missionary, Missionary Zone Leader, assistant to
Bishop and Stake President
You cannot attain the calling
to serve as Mormon Bishop or Stake President unless you are a thoroughly entrenched and obedient Mormon
a Mormon Bishops daughter."
Source: Tricia Erickson: 'An indoctrinated Mormon should never be elected as President'
Indeed. Of course! If I as a descendent of a Mormon leader can readily find the following quotes, then what about an "insider" like Romney?
|Lds Leader||Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title)||Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words)|
|John Taylor||Lds 'Prophet' #3||The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto [so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862)|
|John Taylor||Lds 'Prophet' #3||The LDS Church -- in 2001 -- thought it well to pull this quote from John Taylor to emphasize it: "The Lord...is desirous to show us how to save ourselves, how to bless ourselves temporally and spiritually, intellectually, morally, physically, POLITICALLY..." (Lds Church owned Deseret News, Nov. 19, 1865, p. 2, as quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor (2001, p. 178). Also from p. 178: "The idea of strictly religious feelings with us, and nothing else, is out of the question...Our religion is more comprehensive than that of the world...it embraces all the interests of humanity in every conceivable phrase..." (Original source: The Gospel Kingdom, 1943, p. 168)|
|Orson Hyde||President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875)||What the world calls Mormonism will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53)|
|Heber J. Grant||Lds 'Prophet' #7||"Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984)|
|Harold B. Lee||Lds 'Prophet' #11||...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989)|
|Spencer Kimball||Lds 'Prophet' #12||"President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983)|
|What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father?||Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets')||"Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984)|
|Ezra Taft Benson||Lds 'Prophet' #13||Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet|
|Benson (cont'd)||Fundamental #5||5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney?)|
|Benson (cont'd)||Fundamental #9||9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt?)|
|Benson (cont'd)||Fundamental #10||10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt?)|
|B.H. Roberts||LDS Historian and Seventy. Note: Roberts was an elected Democratic Congressman from Utah in 1898 -- but was NEVER seated by Congress because of grass roots uproar vs. Roberts, who took a THIRD simultaneous wife in the early 1890s. Grass roots America collected 7 MILLION signatures on 28 banners and presented them to Congress...in pre-mass media 1800s!||[T]he kingdom of God... is to be a POLITICAL INSTITUTION THAT SHALL HOLD SWAY OVER ALL THE EARTH; TO WHICH ALL OTHER GOVERNMENTS WILL BE SUBORDINATE AND BY WHICH THEY WILL BE DOMINATED. The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo, 1900, p. 180|
|Mitt Romney as POTUS???||Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do?||The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."]|
As post #12 shows, the Mormon god who reveals "revelations" to the Mormon "prophet" who could treat the Lds POTUS as a "puppet" doesn't eschew Marxism, either. In fact, the last column in the chart in post #12 cites a faithful Mormon author who concedes that Mormon United Orderism (Communism) influenced Soviet communism.
As for Obama's Muslim ties, I highlighted those in April by linking 11 FREEPER threads posted 'tween 2008-2012. Still, what proof is there beyond his catering to Muslims that Obama is one -- other than the "I said so & a few other FREEPERs said so" arguments we get in here all the time?
Indeed, but when you have a nation of voters who are themselves eclectic heretics, you tend -- even on a Web site devoted to God (like this one) -- to get a "who cares?" shrug.
But to reinforce your point:
Similarities between Mormonism and Scientology
o Based on entirely unevidenced stories
o Doctrines created and evolved over time, sometimes changing
o Known for their extreme desire for wealth
o Known for telling stories and lies
o Convicted and imprisoned for illegal activities
o Died during their trouble with the law
* Legal troubles
o Involved in many illegal activities, in many cases as part of official organization doctrine and practices
o Support destruction of outsiders, especially apostates (blood atonement, shunning, "fair game")
o Legal troubles led to changes in doctrine (at least on the surface, note polygamy and "fair game")
o Pre- and post-mortal existence
o Eternal progression (godhood, clear thetan)
o Only way to know truth is to experience it yourself
o Christianity, Bible only partly true
o Focus on thriving and happiness in present life rather than the afterlife or eternal life
o "Salvation" by works
o Give "milk" instead of "meat"
o Official endorsement of lying about or avoiding discussion of controversial doctrines, especially origin of man and key figures (Heavenly Father, Xenu, spirit children, thetans, etc)
o Levels can be achieved (Operating Thetan levels, temple Mormons, eternal progression, different kingdoms)
o Resistance is dismissed as proof/evidence of validity
o Persecution complex
o Label and treat opposition as evil enemies ("Antis", "Suppressive Persons")
1. Pre-existence of humanity:
LDS: All humans pre-existed in the spirit world before being born on earth.
Scientology: People were thetans in past lives + belief in reincarnation.
2. Unlimited potential for humans:
LDS: Heavenly Father (God) is an exalted man and LDS men may become gods with omnipotence and omniscience.
Scientology: People may become thetans again, regaining their freedom from matter, energy, space, and time (MEST).
3. Salvation only through their Church:
LDS: Exaltation and godhood only through the LDS Church.
Scientology: Recovering ones thetanhood only possible through Church of Scientology.
This thread drew over 400 replies:
Similarities between Mormonism and Scientology
L. Ron Hubbard could have easily substituted Kolob for Venus in his religion.
According to Scientology, when a person dies or, in Scientology terms, when a thetan abandons its physical body they go to a "landing station" on the planet Venus, where the thetan is re-implanted and told lies about its past life and its next life. The Venusians take the thetan, "capsule" it, and send it back to Earth to be dumped into the ocean off the coast of California. Source: Thetan (Wikipedia)
Seems to me that, per the Mormon myth narrative, when when an earthling is becoming "encapsuled" they leave from a "launching station" on the planet Kolob, where the Mormon spirit is implanted inside a human body, and once born with a Mormon family, the Mormon is told lies about its past life and its next life. The Mormon gods take the Mormon, "capsule" it in that body, and send it to Earth to be dumped at age 8 into the Mormon baptismal founts off of many international coasts. LDS (Mormonism) and Scientology: A Brief Theological Comparison Under one of the differences, I actually see more of a connection...one mentions Mormonism's "exaltation to godhood"...Scientologists a "return to Thetanhood" as its "final goal."
If there is a resemblance between the two founders, presumably it is because Hubbard looked at Joseph Smith and the LDS and decided it would provide him with a very useful model for a successful religion. He gave it an SF twist, because that was what he was good at, and it probably amused him.
Well, Hubbard did have to "twist" any sci-fi that Mormon leaders hadn't already done before him -- just a lot less detail.
* Lds "prophet" Brigham Young: Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? ...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.
Source: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271...1870 -- so keep in mind, Young had already been leading the Lds church for about 25 years or so when he made this comment.
Brigham Young's first counselor was "apostle" Heber C. Kimball: "Where did the earth come from? From its parents earths...The earth is alive. If it was not, it could not produce." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 36, 1857)
BTW, where did Brigham Young get his "source" re: the habitation of the moon?
Oliver B. Huntington: Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do--that they live generally near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging nearly six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and--to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can not behold with your eyes. The first two promises have been fulfilled, and the latter may be verified. From the verification of the two promises we may reasonably expect the third to be fulfilled also. (Source: Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 3, pp. 263-264, 1892)
The last thing I expected was FREEPERs either to cover up -- or become apologists for -- Romney's socialist healthcare imposition upon Mass citizens!
What freeper would do that?
Way cool, basing your entire view of mormonism on a couple of nice guys next door who were mormons.
How enlightened of you.
ALL: Only when Romney himself became his own political religion -- and began converting former conservatives into Mittbots -- did we begin to see this hyper religio-political vocab enter the pix...
Where even the Mittbots enter the posting picture and use the same language Christians use ("trust Christ")...only now fixated upon their political messiah, Mitt Romney...the man who is here to politically save them and their country!
"Trust Romney" is Mindbender 3:16.
(Yeah, I need to replug in my last tagline)
the inquisition was over 500 years ago. get your head out of the sand and vote for Romney! W’ere voting for a commander-in-chief, not a Pope.
Well, I've had this discussion many a time on various FR threads...where the Q is raised: Are we voting for a 'pastor-in-chief' or commander-in-chief?
There's a few operating Bible-based "principles" that undergird this Q...And it's essentially this:
Principle: This question addresses not only the role and identity of the POTUS, but the perceived 'self' identity of the candidate. If a given candidate thinks he's a 'god' or 'would-be' god, he exposes himself as deceived on one of the most basic elemental identity issues you can think of.
If a candidate doesn't even know who he is fundamentally, how do we know similar distortions won't effect his judgment? Besides, if he inwardly lauds himself as 'divine,' why would we want to reinforce such an idolater who steals glory from the One True God?
Then there's an associated principle to consider here: Is a POTUS a 'minister' of sorts?
Apparently, you might say 'no.'
I say 'yes,' and here's why:
Even non-religious people tend to at times honor the Bible. The Biblical record shows that true successful leadership in public office is done by those who fear the TRUE Lord -- not by some low-level Mormon god who is part of a great number of Mormon gods...
And these Biblical leaders did not -- or were not to -- worship false gods/idols. The Old Testament is replete w/ such examples. The Israelites had secular kings, not "pastors in chief." But that didn't mean that these kings' ministrations were any less a "ministry." Romans 13 makes it clear that public office is also a "ministry." Those who contend against this are openly militating against this Scripture.
It doesn't mean that public officeholders administrate in a parochial way; it just means that public office is a "ministry of service" like the soup kitchen down the street.
History (biblical & otherwise) shows that the more pagan or counterfeit god that a leader adheres to, the more trouble that leader's "exhaust" settles on the people-at-large. Kings & presidents need all the grace, mercy, & guidance possible, since God gets more credit for preserving & directing leaders than we care to give Him credit for. Therefore, one who worships a false god & has no true relationship w/the living God is stifling access to God's resources; & a nation may suffer for that.
Therefore, we must weigh a candidate's level of vulnerability to deception - for that transcends 'religious' considerations: If a candidate is gullible in the most important area of his life -- his faith this serves as an excellent indicator of potential other gullibilities.
I can’t be overly critical of you here. I have serious problems with romney and those backing him. But i think he is by far the lesser of the two evils.
Meaning if you had any courage, you'd reveal what you believe, and the rest of the Freepers who thought you a heretic would beset you, all in the name of "Education. Shining a light on a dark corner."
But I wonder, after Romney wins, what will someone like you do, besides tear your hair out, render your garments, and bleat like a stuck sheep?
Maybe you should learn something about mormonISM before your defend it.
Why not start a thread in the Religion Forum and ask your questions making sure they revolve around obamahysteria.
It’s obvious that you have put a lot of time and thought into dissecting Mormonism. I happen to agree with all of your major tenets. But FreeRepublic is a political forum. Believe me Romney was my 5th choice to be the republican nominee. I am willing to bet that Romney’s nominal mormonism is less of a threat to the republic than Obama’s white-hating Rev. Wright liberation theology. Obama is the one who disguising his faith and subtly changing the definition of Christianity away from orthodoxy.
well the analogy I am about to offer is far from fitting, but I had to come up with some illustration to show how nonsensical your comment is...your Q is like asking jay leno or conan obrien during the 04 campaign what they would do for potential monologue material if bush would be reelected in 04? A Romney White House is a double edge sword for mormonism...yes, more mainstream acceptance yet also more exposure and transparency than ever before...
They claim Romney is not “conservative enough” or some other claptrap, but in reality, all they are trying to do is reelect Obama.
I never cease to be amazed at how much wrong is done in the name of religion.
Of course, in your case, that is not true. You are simply trying to use some religious argument to help reelect Obama.
Don’t worry, we will pray for your misguided soul.
Suggest you do not be suckered in by his pseudo-religious claptrap.
It’s not about relgion, Mormomism, or Christianity at all.
Religion is simply the smokescreen he hides behind to try to promote the reelection of his hero, Obama.
What will he do after the election?
Go back to his full time job at the DNC!
You've done a very good job of smearing Romney with your train of logic 2d. As a Temple mormon in good standing - you've just made the case that Romney is not a rational person.
Believe me, I know a LOT about it - and from a balanced perspective.
Apparently not, from a balanced perspective.
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