Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Why the long-supported quantum electrodynamics theory might need some rethinking
Electronic Products ^ | 12/3/12 | Jeffrey Bausch

Posted on 12/21/2012 11:05:27 AM PST by null and void

Recent observations prove revisions might be necessary for long support theory

Data gathered by a team at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NSIT) suggest that certain aspects of the highly regarded quantum electrodynamics theory might require some revising.


Observations made with the NSIT’s electron beam ion trap have led to questions regarding the accuracy of the quantum electrodynamics theory.

What the group discovered, via the NSIT’s Electron Beam Ion Trap, is that ions with a strongly positive charge can display electrons that behave in ways inconsistent with what the theory suggests should happen.

About the quantum electrodynamics theory

The quantum electrodynamics theory is held in such high regard because it has a very long, very sound track record when it comes to describing electromagnetism’s effects on matter.

Specifically, the theory explains the behavior of electrons. It can tell how an electron will react when it collides with a passing article [sic]; that is, it’ll get bumped up to a higher energy state for a moment, but quickly fall back to its original orbit. When this happens, it gives off a photon of light, and the quantum electrodynamics theory can tell what wavelength, or color, that photon will have.

Putting the theory to the test

While the quantum electrodynamics theory has been accepted as-is for years-on end, technology has obviously been improved over this time. And since the scientific and engineering communities consist of many curious folk, the theory has continually been tested using modern-day technologies that are more precise than yesterday’s models.

So, with all of that being said, to test the quantum electrodynamics theory out, the NSIT used its Electron Beam Ion Trap to strip a heavy atom (titanium, iron, etc.) of nearly all of its electrons in order to observe how the remaining electrons would behave. “If 20 of titanium’s 22 electrons are removed, it becomes a highly charged ion that looks in many ways like a helium atom that has been shrunk to a tenth its original size,” explains NIST physicist John Gillaspy, a member of the research team. “Ironically, in this unusual state, the effects of QED are magnified, so we can explore them in more detail.”

During observations, Gillaspy and his team found that the photons given off by these very unique, highly charged ions were noticeably different in color than what the quantum electrodynamics theory suggested. This marks the first time the theory has ever been proven incorrect.

Outlook

The results are certainly fascinating, but fans of the quantum electrodynamics theory need not fear it’s immediate demise — this is just the first of many more tests to come. In fact, Gillaspy hopes that his group’s findings will inspire others to do similar tests and maybe even measure the emitted photons with greater accuracy.

“What the NIST experiment found is interesting enough that it merits attention,” says Jonathan Sapirstein, a professor of physics at the University of Notre Dame. “Independent calculations should be done to confirm the theory, and other experiments should also confirm the findings. However, if no errors are found in the theory and the NIST experiment is correct, some physics outside of QED must be present.”

The group’s paper, Testing three-body quantum electrodynamics with trapped Ti20+ ions: Evidence for a Z-dependent divergence between experiment and calculation, was published in Physical Review Letters. It is available to subscribers of the website. ■


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: cmns; coldfusion; lenr; physics; stringtheory
Therefore all science is wrong. </YEC>
1 posted on 12/21/2012 11:05:36 AM PST by null and void
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: null and void

So eventually they will demonstrate that QED is QED.


2 posted on 12/21/2012 11:13:00 AM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: EEGator

Nicely played...


3 posted on 12/21/2012 11:14:35 AM PST by null and void (Going Galt: The won't of the people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: null and void; SunkenCiv
Thanks, for the post.
science ping..really missed this one.

4 posted on 12/21/2012 11:18:55 AM PST by skinkinthegrass (Who'll take tomorrow,spend it all today; who can take your income & tax it all away..0Bama man can :)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: null and void

Thank you, I’ll be here all week...


5 posted on 12/21/2012 11:23:44 AM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: null and void
Jonathan Sapirstein, a professor of physics at the University of Notre Dame

Reminds me of a physics professor that opened the semester leaning heavily on a door sill and asking students to estimate the force of his pressing action?

Is their anyone here that knows the answer?

6 posted on 12/21/2012 11:25:15 AM PST by OldNavyVet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: null and void
What the group discovered, via the NSIT’s Electron Beam Ion Trap, is that ions with a strongly positive charge can display electrons that behave in ways inconsistent with what the theory suggests should happen.

I'm guessing the author probably should have said "ions with a strongly positive charge can displace electrons in ways inconsistent..."

Anything that an "ion with a strongly positive charge" can "display" would be displayed with very few pixels indeed.

7 posted on 12/21/2012 11:27:36 AM PST by Steely Tom (If the Constitution can be a living document, I guess a corporation can be a person.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: OldNavyVet

This is a trick or joke question right?


8 posted on 12/21/2012 11:30:05 AM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: null and void

I’d hate for one of their favorite theories to be proven wrong cuz they would have to scrap that recent book about how the “universe pops in and out of existence.”


9 posted on 12/21/2012 11:32:02 AM PST by I want the USA back
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: EEGator

So eventually they will demonstrate that QED is QED.

But probably not PDQ.


10 posted on 12/21/2012 11:34:30 AM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Steely Tom

Yes! That was another [sic] I was going to add, actually two of the three I missed, NSIT’s [sic], display [sic] and a second (NSIT) [sic]...


11 posted on 12/21/2012 11:36:26 AM PST by null and void (Going Galt: The won't of the people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: tet68

Haha, no. It will take decades and lots and lots of Federal grants.


12 posted on 12/21/2012 11:38:43 AM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: OldNavyVet
Is their anyone here that knows the answer?

Exactly equal to the force of the door sill pressing back?

13 posted on 12/21/2012 11:38:51 AM PST by null and void (Going Galt: The won't of the people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: null and void
“If 20 of titanium’s 22 electrons are removed, it becomes a highly charged ion that looks in many ways like a helium atom that has been shrunk to a tenth its original size,” explains NIST physicist John Gillaspy, a member of the research team. “Ironically, in this unusual state, the effects of QED are magnified, so we can explore them in more detail.”

It sounds almost like they have effectively built a single-atom cyclotron.

14 posted on 12/21/2012 11:44:11 AM PST by Flick Lives (We're going to be just like the old Soviet Union, but with free cell phones!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: OldNavyVet

I will need some basic information before making my calculations .... first ... how fat was his ass ?


15 posted on 12/21/2012 11:45:23 AM PST by layman (Card Carrying Infidel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: OldNavyVet
Reminds me of a physics professor that opened the semester leaning heavily on a door sill and asking students to estimate the force of his pressing action?
Force = Mass x Acceleration

The Acceleration involved is about 9.8m/S (1g) The mass involved is a bit more complicated requiring knowledge of the mass of the professor and the angle of the lean. It's a pretty cute vector problem that is solvable with some thought.

16 posted on 12/21/2012 11:48:43 AM PST by Mycroft Holmes (<= Mash name for HTML Xampp PHP C JavaScript primer. Programming for everyone.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: null and void
However, if no errors are found in the theory and the NIST experiment is correct,

Time to put a tape measure to the cables?
17 posted on 12/21/2012 11:53:10 AM PST by sasquatch
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Flick Lives

Good point. High (near relativistic) electron velocity=higher mass=shift in emitted wavelength.

It would be nice to know if the emitted light was red shifted or blue shifted...


18 posted on 12/21/2012 11:53:10 AM PST by null and void (Going Galt: The won't of the people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: OldNavyVet

Just leaning against the frame, the only force in play would be the force of gravity pulling him down, redirected laterally by him using the doorframe for support. So, I think the force would be his weight (mass times the acceleration due to gravity), times the sin of the angle at which he is leaning.


19 posted on 12/21/2012 11:58:02 AM PST by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: null and void

lol.

Science is never wrong, it’s just evolving.

lol

do we have a “Settled Science” ping list?


20 posted on 12/21/2012 11:58:41 AM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: null and void

“Exactly equal to the force of the door sill pressing back?”

You forgot opposite. F(12) = -F(21) as in points 1 and 2


21 posted on 12/21/2012 12:04:20 PM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: GeronL

lol.

Religion is never wrong, it’s just created.

lol

do we have a “Settled Religion” ping list?


22 posted on 12/21/2012 12:04:41 PM PST by null and void (Going Galt: The won't of the people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Mycroft Holmes; layman; null and void; EEGator
Mycroft is almost right.

It's not a trick, not a joke, and not a vector problem.

The formula F = MA is correct.

Irregardless of Mass ... given zero Acceleration the force is zero.

It might be interesting to try the question out on whiz kids you know.

23 posted on 12/21/2012 12:05:50 PM PST by OldNavyVet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: GeronL

The scientific method is the best method we have for finding out answers to our questions. You can still believe in God while admitting the scientific method is our best tool.


24 posted on 12/21/2012 12:06:31 PM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: OldNavyVet

That sounds fishy to me. So if I’m bench pressing and I get stuck half way up, I’m not exerting force? I understand the math aspect, since zero times anything is zero. If my force is zero, what am I exerting?


25 posted on 12/21/2012 12:10:51 PM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: OldNavyVet; EEGator

Yes. And zero=zero. No ± sign, no sine...


26 posted on 12/21/2012 12:13:10 PM PST by null and void (Going Galt: The won't of the people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: OldNavyVet; EEGator

Yes. And zero=zero. No ± sign, no sine, no sighin’...


27 posted on 12/21/2012 12:14:00 PM PST by null and void (Going Galt: The won't of the people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: EEGator

Effort. But you are accomplishing no work...


28 posted on 12/21/2012 12:16:53 PM PST by null and void (Going Galt: The won't of the people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: null and void
The ion is actually very different from a helium atom. In the latter case, the atom is charge-neutral and all coulomb fields fall off much faster than r^-2. The ion, meanwhile, has a 20e positive charge which can induce charges in the surroundng walls of the equipment and thence modify the electron orbits.

It is possible that they have tried to compensate for this, but the compensation calculation could be a very difficult one to do accurately.

29 posted on 12/21/2012 12:21:07 PM PST by expat2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: null and void

However, if no errors are found in the theory and the NIST experiment is correct, some physics outside of QED must be present.”
***Physicists have been resisting this notion for 23 years, trying their best to deny the data coming from other Condensed Matter Nuclear Science Experiments known as Cold Fusion.


30 posted on 12/21/2012 12:22:28 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: EEGator
If my force is zero, what am I exerting?

Pressure.

31 posted on 12/21/2012 12:27:56 PM PST by OldNavyVet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: EEGator

“I’m not exerting force?”
You are exerting force. But it has become equal to the force of gravity.


32 posted on 12/21/2012 12:32:22 PM PST by toast
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: OldNavyVet
ΣF=0

ΣM=0

(assuming static equilibrium)

33 posted on 12/21/2012 12:35:07 PM PST by Rodamala
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: OldNavyVet
Reminds me of a physics professor that opened the semester leaning heavily on a door sill and asking students to estimate the force of his pressing action?

Do you really mean sill? The sill is a raised segment at the floor. Or did you mean the door jamb (the vertical member of a door frame. The top horizontal member of the door frame is called the head. So was the prof leaning drunk or fall down on the floor drunk?

34 posted on 12/21/2012 12:42:51 PM PST by Covenantor ("Men are ruled...by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern." Chesterton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: OldNavyVet

That’s not true. There’s still a force that you are exerting on the doorframe, it’s just not strong enough to overcome any counteracting forces, to create an acceleration in the doorframe. You’re still exerting a force though.


35 posted on 12/21/2012 1:27:20 PM PST by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: EEGator
That sounds fishy to me. So if I’m bench pressing and I get stuck half way up, I’m not exerting force? I understand the math aspect, since zero times anything is zero. If my force is zero, what am I exerting?

You have to take gravity into account. You are exerting upward force, which is exactly balanced by the downward force coming from gravity.

36 posted on 12/21/2012 1:38:13 PM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: null and void
Effort. But you are accomplishing no work...

Tell that to the ATPase in the Actin-Myosine filaments

37 posted on 12/21/2012 2:48:47 PM PST by HangnJudge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: All

Thanks for all the feedback.


38 posted on 12/21/2012 4:06:36 PM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: skinkinthegrass; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 6SJ7; AdmSmith; AFPhys; Arkinsaw; allmost; aristotleman; ...

Thanks skinkinthegrass!


· List topics · post a topic · subscribe · Google ·

39 posted on 12/21/2012 7:53:53 PM PST by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson