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Multiverse theory—unknown science or illogical raison d’ętre? (multiverse invented to replace God?)
CMI ^ | Gary Bates

Posted on 11/18/2009 5:58:48 PM PST by GodGunsGuts

New Scientist magazine is generally regarded by the secular community as one of the top-ranked science magazines in the world. However, a published opinion by a regular columnist demonstrated how “unscientific” and anti-God some of their articles have become—something we have documented before (see Refutation of New Scientist’s Evolution: 24 myths and misconceptions).

Amanda Gefter wrote an article discussing multiverse theory, or the idea that our universe may be only one of many that currently exist. Such speculations attempt to explain away the appearance of design in the universe, because of, as we shall see, the spiritual implications. In an article called What’s God got to do with it she wrote: ...

(Excerpt) Read more at creation.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: astronomy; belongsinreligion; catholic; christian; christianity; christianright; cosmogony; cosmology; creation; electricuniverse; evangelical; evolution; godsgravesglyphs; intelligentdesign; judaism; multiverse; nasa; notasciencetopic; propellerbeanie; protestant; science; space; spammer
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1 posted on 11/18/2009 5:58:50 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

I take it then you aren’t a Calvinist?


2 posted on 11/18/2009 6:02:08 PM PST by mnehring
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To: mnehring
I take it then you aren’t a Calvinist?

He was predestined to post this thread.

3 posted on 11/18/2009 6:04:32 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: metmom; DaveLoneRanger; editor-surveyor; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MrB; GourmetDan; Fichori; ...

Ping!


4 posted on 11/18/2009 6:04:42 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
In other words, it's multiverses all the way down, sonny!
5 posted on 11/18/2009 6:08:36 PM PST by Age of Reason
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To: GodGunsGuts

OK, you got me on this one.

No way is a “Multiverse” anything other than blue-sky philosophy. It matches the same number of Scientific Theory criteria as intelligent design.

Now, saying it is part of some sort of cabal planning on replacing God is pretty funny, in a Trvther sort of way.

It is just scientists thinking out of the box.


6 posted on 11/18/2009 6:09:00 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks. Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Anything but God!


7 posted on 11/18/2009 6:09:26 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bomb-a administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: mnehring

No I am not. I believe the predestination (from God’s standpoint) and free will (from our standpoint) exist at the exact same time (by design).


8 posted on 11/18/2009 6:09:49 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: MarkBsnr

He has free will, but all choices he would have made to post or not to post must exist for both free will and to exist.

If this thread was started by anyone else, it could be a really interesting conversation, however, I expect the name calling to start in ..3..2..1..


9 posted on 11/18/2009 6:09:55 PM PST by mnehring
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To: MarkBsnr

oops, I screwed up the post..

Trying again..
He has free will, but all choices he would have made to post or not to post must exist for both free will and predestination to exist.

If this thread was started by anyone else, it could be a really interesting conversation, however, I expect the name calling to start in ..3..2..1..


10 posted on 11/18/2009 6:11:01 PM PST by mnehring
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To: GodGunsGuts
No I am not. I believe the predestination (from God’s standpoint) and free will (from our standpoint) exist at the exact same time (by design).

There actually may be hope for good conversation on this thread after all.. This is one of the theological/philosophical questions that I find quite intriguing.

11 posted on 11/18/2009 6:12:34 PM PST by mnehring
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To: freedumb2003
"It is just scientists secular philosophers thinking out of the box."


12 posted on 11/18/2009 6:13:54 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bomb-a administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: GodGunsGuts

I am always amused when a scientist discovers some additional complexity to the cosmos and pronounces that, therefore, God must not exist. The logical trainwreck of that conclusion defies explanation and illustrates the ignorance of the scientist. Simply to move from one level of complexity to another in no way ‘disproves’ the existence of God. Instead, it ought to suggest to us that God, if God exists (and I do believe) is even bigger, more powerful and more awesome than we thought before.

In fact, I believe I will continue to be surprised and awed throughout eternity.


13 posted on 11/18/2009 6:14:10 PM PST by newheart ("It will keep the government out of your health care decisions..." Barack Obama, July 23, 2009)
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To: mnehring
"I take it then you aren’t a Calvinist?"

Could you expand on that?

14 posted on 11/18/2009 6:14:47 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bomb-a administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: editor-surveyor

We don’t know if they are secular or not. But it certainly is a lot of fun philosophizing. Who knows? If they can wrangle it into the science framework, it may have interesting applications. Quantum theory started similarly.


15 posted on 11/18/2009 6:17:09 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks. Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: mnehring
I suppose that that could be likened to the answer to a mathematical question as it's either 42 or not. Something like our weatherman/girl/robotic simalcrum. It's either going to rain today or else it isn't.

Multiverse? A mathematical speculation; and an approach to physics that introduces more dimensions into the equation. If one remembers that mathematics is language describing reality and not reality itself, then one may put things into perspective a little easier.

16 posted on 11/18/2009 6:17:16 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: editor-surveyor; mnehring

>>”I take it then you aren’t a Calvinist?”

Could you expand on that?<<

Maybe he already did and we are waiting for the timeline to catch up... :)


17 posted on 11/18/2009 6:18:53 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks. Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: GodGunsGuts
This theory of unlimited Universes, solves the problem of the finite universe.

Simply stated: the problem is that our universe is finite in size and in time, which makes the self organization of matter into life an impossibility.

If universes are finite entities, but the number of them are infinite then the problem is solved, we don't need God for life. We are just one of the lucky universes in an unlimited number of them.

18 posted on 11/18/2009 6:19:36 PM PST by D Rider
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To: GodGunsGuts
No I am not. I believe the predestination (from God’s standpoint) and free will (from our standpoint) exist at the exact same time (by design).

Jumping right back to this... (consider these questions to expand thought, not to challenge what you are saying..)

If many does have free will, then each choice we make has an equal opportunity to exist, correct? Free will does mean free, God doesn't direct the choice, but allows the choice to happen? God, however, predestining our fate then, must exist (for lack of a better term) in a plane of existence where every choice plays out? (thus "Supernatural" outside our laws of space/time). So He also can exist outside our timelines as well, where the future results of choices exist before our making those choices?

Why would this not just apply to man's choices but to every event from a particle touching another particle to a butterfly choosing to fly one way or another?

Could it not be that maybe when we study multi-verse theory (which now is just math and rudimentary experiments) we may be getting a glimpse that there is more to the physical universe than we exist in?

Have you ever thought that things like string theory and multi-verse may actually be man being allowed to get a little more glimpse of God's creation, not a challenge to what some may think is the limits to His creation?

19 posted on 11/18/2009 6:19:46 PM PST by mnehring
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To: GodGunsGuts
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:2

20 posted on 11/18/2009 6:20:06 PM PST by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Damn!

I was hoping you might have gotten banned for the nine posts in a row that you had removed from a legitimate string theory thread.


21 posted on 11/18/2009 6:21:19 PM PST by Wacka
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To: GodGunsGuts
No I am not. I believe the predestination (from God’s standpoint) and free will (from our standpoint) exist at the exact same time (by design).

I am going to pause for a moment, and reflect.

Yes.

This was the single-most lucid and cogent sentence ever posted on FR.

Well done.

22 posted on 11/18/2009 6:21:25 PM PST by ImaGraftedBranch (...By reading this, you've collapsed my wave function. Thanks.)
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To: editor-surveyor
Could you expand on that?

The existence of both free will and predestination as truth. It may be a decent theological/philosophical discussion if it doesn't get sidetracked by the usual commentary on crevo threads.

23 posted on 11/18/2009 6:21:51 PM PST by mnehring
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To: GodGunsGuts

Actually a “multiverse” doesn’t preclude the existence of God. Doesn’t the Bible say that it is the will [desire] of God that none should be lost? If so, then God could have it set up so that at least one instance of any given person does place his trust in God via Jesus...

Of course that would be as weak a claim against evangelizing as predestination would. Perhaps it would be wisest to have the confidence [in God] that predestination affords while holding to the caution-for-righteousness that “lose-your-salvation” encourages... we could apply this idea to the universe/multiverse theory and hope that God will save [a version of everyone] while behaving as if this is the only universe we can know.


24 posted on 11/18/2009 6:22:07 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: freedumb2003
"We don’t know if they are secular or not"

Ok, I'll give you that much, but I fail to see any science either.

To stretch a few observed quantum uncertainties into Multiverse is wild conjecture at best. Where is the emerging empiricity? (it isn't)

25 posted on 11/18/2009 6:23:03 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bomb-a administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: MarkBsnr

>> Multiverse? A mathematical speculation; and an approach to physics that introduces more dimensions into the equation. If one remembers that mathematics is language describing reality and not reality itself, then one may put things into perspective a little easier. <<

Indeed and if multiverses exist and if, even bigger if that people can travel to them, The it would prove that God created them too, making God far more powerful glorious and great than we could even imagine.


26 posted on 11/18/2009 6:25:38 PM PST by GraceG
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To: GodGunsGuts

The old game that used to be played with infinite time is now being played with infinite space.


27 posted on 11/18/2009 6:25:48 PM PST by Poe White Trash (Wake up!)
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To: OneWingedShark

+1 good post..


28 posted on 11/18/2009 6:25:52 PM PST by mnehring
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To: GodGunsGuts

I cx’d my subscription to this a while ago after they went whole hog for “global warming”. I’m afraid that their science has become a joke.

However, the multiverse theory is indeed a logical conclusion if certain physics givens are taken as a start.

In no way does this theory eliminate God. One must always remember that by definition, God will always be hidden from us. I’ll leave that logic to you...because it’s quite beyond a good many of the New Scientist writers.


29 posted on 11/18/2009 6:26:35 PM PST by Da Coyote
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To: mnehring

Perhaps you meant “hyper-calvinism” then?

I consider myself to be calvinistic in the general sense, but its also plain that God in no way intended to create a race of puppets.


30 posted on 11/18/2009 6:26:51 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bomb-a administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: mnehring

Here is a lesson in free will vs. predestination for you. I have to bug out of this discussion for the moment because I promised to cook dinner for my wife!


31 posted on 11/18/2009 6:27:21 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Poe White Trash
"The old game that used to be played with infinite time is now being played with infinite space."

I think that you may have something there.

32 posted on 11/18/2009 6:28:36 PM PST by editor-surveyor (The beginning of the O'Bomb-a administration looks a lot like the end of the Nixon administration)
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To: GodGunsGuts
I promised to cook dinner for my wife!

See, I don't care what they (or I ) say, there is a decent fella in there somewhere.. Maybe if you knock off the name calling and quips you could be a better witness.

33 posted on 11/18/2009 6:29:52 PM PST by mnehring
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To: GodGunsGuts

Multiverse theory is the gospel of indecisiveness.

When you make a choice, no other choice was made somewhere else, and no alternate universe springs into existence where an alternate you made a different choice. Reality is that you just have to deal with the consequences of your choice.


34 posted on 11/18/2009 6:30:04 PM PST by Grig
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To: editor-surveyor

>>To stretch a few observed quantum uncertainties into Multiverse is wild conjecture at best. Where is the emerging empiricity? (it isn’t)<<

I am with you on this one. It sounds like a bunch of drunk sophomores in the dorm on Saturday night to me.

The good news is I don’t think they have tried to actually publish this in any peer-reviewed journals.


35 posted on 11/18/2009 6:31:04 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks. Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Grig

Then God is bound to our timeline of action/reaction and He doesn’t know or determine the future?


36 posted on 11/18/2009 6:31:37 PM PST by mnehring
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To: Grig

>>When you make a choice, no other choice was made somewhere else, and no alternate universe springs into existence where an alternate you made a different choice. Reality is that you just have to deal with the consequences of your choice.<<

I checked with my nVerse counterpart and he tells me you didn’t post that over there. But he says you are considered good-looking by the criteria there, so maybe the Multiverses are always a zero-sum game?

;)


37 posted on 11/18/2009 6:34:08 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks. Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: D Rider
If universes are finite entities, but the number of them are infinite then the problem is solved, we don't need God for life. We are just one of the lucky universes in an unlimited number of them.

Perhaps the multiple universes exist simultaneously and the most important differentiation is whether or not you have chosen to have faith. More pity to the atheist then who has chosen to be not saved. With faith, the journey continues...

38 posted on 11/18/2009 6:35:19 PM PST by eldoradude (Let's water the tree of liberty with THEIR blood...)
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To: mnehring

>>Then God is bound to our timeline of action/reaction and He doesn’t know or determine the future?<<

Probably, but he is like a good critic and never posts spoilers...


39 posted on 11/18/2009 6:35:31 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks. Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: freedumb2003
. It sounds like a bunch of drunk sophomores in the dorm on Saturday night...

..and what is wrong with that? Some of the greatest minds, from Aristotle to C.S.Lewis were known to discuss philosophy over a few too many.. Even Luke says that the Phrasees complained Jesus drank too much (Luke 7:34 et al)

40 posted on 11/18/2009 6:35:53 PM PST by mnehring
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To: freedumb2003
No way is a “Multiverse” anything other than blue-sky philosophy.

I'm sure the same was thought of curved space, black holes and relativity at one time.

There are forces and realities in the universe that we have yet to stumble upon.

41 posted on 11/18/2009 6:37:44 PM PST by buccaneer81 (ECOMCON)
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To: mnehring

>>.and what is wrong with that? Some of the greatest minds, from Aristotle to C.S.Lewis were known to discuss philosophy over a few too many.<<

Hey, I have no problem with it. I think it is a great idea and who knows how many REAL breakthroughs were sparked by fermented grain and/or fruit? I have had a few systems design breakthroughs that way myself...


42 posted on 11/18/2009 6:38:12 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks. Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Age of Reason

Are you saying God can only create one universe?


43 posted on 11/18/2009 6:42:23 PM PST by Ronin (Better an avowed enemy in front of me than a potential traitor beside me. NO RINOS!)
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To: buccaneer81

>>I’m sure the same was thought of curved space, black holes and relativity at one time.<<

And I noted upthread I am convinced that quantum theory started in the same way. But, as of now, it is just a concept with nothing but really fun ideas behind it.

It causes a but of confusion when it is called a “theory.” It certainly isn’t a Scientific Theory.


44 posted on 11/18/2009 6:43:54 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks. Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Multiverse theory—unknown science or illogical raison d’être? (multiverse invented to replace God?)

It seems that much of what is passing for science these days has that goal.

Instead of a search for knowledge to improve the lot of mankind, it's become an agenda driven machine which is being misused for mostly political gain but also for ideological gain.

It's become the most popular tool going with which to attack and belittle religious faith in general, and Christianity in particular.

One only has to scan threads on FR to glean that.

45 posted on 11/18/2009 6:43:54 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: D Rider

Whether or not an infinite number of universes eliminates the NEED for God, since when was anything NEEDED to exist, in order to exist ?

It’s a misleading question, just because there appears to be no NEED for God in Multiverse theory, does not rule out His Existence. In fact, quite the opposite. .


46 posted on 11/18/2009 6:45:16 PM PST by Salgak (Acme Lasers presents: The Energizer Border: I dare you to try and cross it. . .)
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To: freedumb2003

>No way is a “Multiverse” anything other than blue-sky philosophy. It matches the same number of Scientific Theory criteria as intelligent design.

Really? It seems to me that the premise of Intelligent Design is fairly sound: that given a system which is structured and orderly in some way is likely to have a designer at the core.

IE Standard implication; the reverse isn’t true given a “random” system we may not tell whether there was or wasn’t a designer. Look at it this way:
— Ada with a very uniform structure and syntax implies that it was designed.
— C / C++ with its horrid inconsistencies cannot be assumed to have been designed or [exclusive] grown.


47 posted on 11/18/2009 6:46:01 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: freedumb2003

No, not scientists thinking outside the box.

Scientists looking for a naturalistic materialistic explanation for the existence of everything.

Then there’s no need for God anymore.


48 posted on 11/18/2009 6:46:03 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Ronin
Are you saying God can only create one universe?

This is what I came to say.
49 posted on 11/18/2009 6:46:03 PM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: GodGunsGuts
Underverse?


50 posted on 11/18/2009 6:47:49 PM PST by Teflonic
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