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‘No evidence for or against gravitational waves’: Big Bang 'ripples' too weak to be significant.
NATURE ^ | 06/02/2014 | RON COWEN

Posted on 06/02/2014 10:34:39 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

The astronomers who this spring announced that they had evidence of primordial gravitational waves jumped the gun because they did not take into proper account a confounding effect of galactic dust, two new analyses suggest.

Although further observations may yet find the signal to emerge from the noise, independent experts now say they no longer believe that the original data constituted significant evidence.

Researchers said in March that they had found a faint twisting pattern in the polarization of the cosmic microwave background (CMB), the Big Bang’s afterglow, using a South Pole-based radio telescope called BICEP2. This pattern, they said, was evidence for primordial gravitational waves, ripples in the fabric of space-time generated in the early Universe (see 'Telescope captures view of gravitational waves'). The announcement caused a sensation because it seemed to confirm the theory of cosmic inflation, which holds that the cosmos mushroomed in size during the first fraction of a second after the Big Bang.

However two independent analyses now suggest that those twisting patterns in the CMB polarization could just as easily be accounted for by dust in the Milky Way Galaxy

(Excerpt) Read more at nature.com ...


TOPICS: Astronomy; History; Science
KEYWORDS: bigbang; gravitywaves; origins; stringtheory
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1 posted on 06/02/2014 10:34:39 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

“All we are is dust in the wind”


2 posted on 06/02/2014 10:38:42 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: DannyTN

3 posted on 06/02/2014 10:39:39 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

All we are is dust in the wind.


4 posted on 06/02/2014 10:39:43 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lost my tagline on Flight MH370. Sorry for the inconvenience.)
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To: SeekAndFind

5 posted on 06/02/2014 10:40:05 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: UCANSEE2

Seriously though, The main reason for postulating gravitational waves is that Einstein was staunchly against the idea of nonlocal interactions, i.e., “spooky actions at a distance” as he called them. He insisted that nothing can move faster than the speed of light, including gravity and EM waves.

But now we realize that Einstein was wrong about the spookiness of quantum physics.


6 posted on 06/02/2014 10:43:59 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

The Scientific Method once again proves itself.

There is no other area of knowledge that polices itself as rigorously as Science.

This is a null value determination. But a really good catch.


7 posted on 06/02/2014 10:45:48 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (AGW "Scientific method:" Draw your lines first, then plot your points)
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To: SeekAndFind

Ahhh yes. The Big bang. When there was nothing and then it blew up.


8 posted on 06/02/2014 10:45:57 AM PDT by ruesrose (The Anchor Holds)
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To: dfwgator

LOL, that’s great. I haven’t seen that one.


9 posted on 06/02/2014 10:50:12 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: SeekAndFind

And I thought that this was settled science and that the evidence of primordial gravitational waves was incontrovertible and accepted by 97% of physicists.


10 posted on 06/02/2014 10:57:35 AM PDT by House Atreides
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To: ruesrose

Nothing comes from nothing.


11 posted on 06/02/2014 11:00:59 AM PDT by HandyDandy (Started out with Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff....)
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To: House Atreides
Not that I'd heard. Maybe you're thinking of the microwave background radiation?
12 posted on 06/02/2014 11:01:09 AM PDT by ConservingFreedom (A goverrnment strong enough to impose your standards is strong enough to ban them.)
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To: freedumb2003
Science polices itself, but it does suffer from too much group think and not enough scientific testing which results in slowing down scientific progress and the embrace of invalid hypotheses. Too often new scientific ideas have to wait an entire generation before they will be adequately investigated and adopted.

We've seen with global warming the political influence on science. And the willingness of too many scientists to get on board and promote global warming without criticallly examining the data.

RIDICULED DISCOVERERS,VINDICATED MAVERICKS"

Genius Hall of Vindication

13 posted on 06/02/2014 11:05:08 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: ruesrose
And God said, "let there be light," and there was light.

At least one scientist proposes a modification to Einstein's theory of gravity, whereby the beginning was more of a big "push" than explosion. And he's not the only scientist who supposes the sum total energy (including the energy represented by matter) is exactly zero.

No matter how you decide to look at it, the universe is a vast and intriguing place.

14 posted on 06/02/2014 11:07:52 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: HandyDandy
Nothing comes from nothing.

Nothing from nothing leaves nothing.

15 posted on 06/02/2014 11:09:49 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Early 2009 to 7/21/2013 - RIP my little girl Cathy. You were the best cat ever. You will be missed.)
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To: All



16 posted on 06/02/2014 11:11:37 AM PDT by onyx (Please Support Free Republic - Donate Monthly! If you want on Sarah Palin's Ping List, Let Me know!)
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To: SeekAndFind

According to the article, within six months there will be much better data for dust and CMB light that could settle the issue. It’s been over 13 billion years. A few more months won’t hurt.


17 posted on 06/02/2014 11:12:51 AM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: ruesrose
The Big bang. When there was nothing and then it blew up.

My understanding, which could be wrong, is that a vacuum would have to exist. I don't know about the vacuum back then, but the vacuum we have today is much more than nothing.

18 posted on 06/02/2014 11:18:30 AM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Drat.


19 posted on 06/02/2014 11:20:24 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: HandyDandy

Something comes from nothing.


20 posted on 06/02/2014 11:23:26 AM PDT by mlo
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To: ruesrose
Ahhh yes. The Big bang. When there was nothing and then it blew up.

Well, there was a singluarity.

But the big bang, if it happened, is God's creation. Something from nothing.

21 posted on 06/02/2014 11:26:18 AM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: DannyTN

>>We’ve seen with global warming the political influence on science. And the willingness of too many scientists to get on board and promote global warming without criticallly examining the data.<<

Sadly, yes. Science will follow the money, especially when it is impossible to gauge the results (unlike, say Cold Fusion, which has to demonstrably work).

AGW is a very very new field of study and defies any and all scientific fundamentals — it meets exactly zero of the criteria of a Scientific Theory.

The tiny but growing AGW corner of “science” is like the tiny corner of business that is made up of government-subsidized “green” businesses.

I assure you AGW is an embarrassment to real scientists everywhere, especially since it gets thrown in the face of those who do pursue real science.


22 posted on 06/02/2014 11:35:48 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (AGW "Scientific method:" Draw your lines first, then plot your points)
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To: FatherofFive

>>But the big bang, if it happened, is God’s creation. Something from nothing.<<

Absolutely.

This is where science meets theology.


23 posted on 06/02/2014 11:37:58 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (AGW "Scientific method:" Draw your lines first, then plot your points)
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To: SeekAndFind

The Big Bang theory says the universe expanded from a single point. Have they ever located where in the universe that is? Seems like they should be able to figure that out.


24 posted on 06/02/2014 11:46:10 AM PDT by Personal Responsibility (I'd use the /S tag but is it really necessary?)
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To: freedumb2003
True, but the problem is bigger than global warming.

The scientific community too often doesn't investigate new ideas before disputing them. They are quick to ridicule new ideas without even attempting to scientifically prove them false.

And the dogma and "just so" stories that comes out of evolutionist camps is another major embarrassment to real scientists.

25 posted on 06/02/2014 11:55:58 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: mlo

Something comes from something.


26 posted on 06/02/2014 11:57:30 AM PDT by HandyDandy (Started out with Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff....)
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To: freedumb2003

In the beginning was the Word.
Nothing comes from nothing.
Anything has to come from something. That is the problem that scientists now face. I was taught in grammar school science that nothing comes from nothing. Now scientists are saying everything came from nothing. The “big bang” and Jesus Christ came from the same “something”.


27 posted on 06/02/2014 11:57:30 AM PDT by HandyDandy (Started out with Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff....)
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To: FatherofFive
But the big bang, if it happened, is God's creation. Something from nothing.

I've always thought that what we call the Big Bang would be a most excellent mechanism for God to use to initiate a self supporting system of creation and renewal. "Let there be light" and with a word...all matter we can see was released from the tips of His fingers.

28 posted on 06/02/2014 12:24:43 PM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (All the love gone bad turned my world to black. Tattooed all I see. All that I am. All I'll be.)
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To: HandyDandy

That too.


29 posted on 06/02/2014 12:39:46 PM PDT by mlo
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
"Let there be light" and with a word...all matter we can see was released from the tips of His fingers.

When one looks at the massive structures of galaxies that Hubble has provided, I do not understand how people can believe this all cane from a singularity.

I believe the the Big Bang was other the hand of God, or a portal from another dimension. I know of no physics that can explan how all the matter in the known univrese can be compressed to the head of a pin.

30 posted on 06/02/2014 12:48:38 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive
I believe the the Big Bang was other the hand of God, or a portal from another dimension. I know of no physics that can explain how all the matter in the known universe can be compressed to the head of a pin.

Could be. If massive amounts of matter is compressed in an ever shrinking mass, we get a black hole. If this mechanism were multiplied a trillion fold, or more, would such a mass be able to rip a hole through the fabric of space/time? Perhaps. And what was on the other side? Was there anything on the other side? Or was this simply a conduit for Him to create where we now live?

31 posted on 06/02/2014 12:59:28 PM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (All the love gone bad turned my world to black. Tattooed all I see. All that I am. All I'll be.)
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To: All

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32 posted on 06/02/2014 1:00:50 PM PDT by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: DannyTN

>>And the dogma and “just so” stories that comes out of evolutionist camps is another major embarrassment to real scientists.<<

If you can scientifically refute evolution, you will be the first to ever do so.

I can nail AGW using the Scientific Method with my little finger (scientific alternative addresses all know facts — the Earth has undergone broad climate changes which include changes of No2 since its birth).

If you have a physical scientific (not theological/philosophical) alternative that explains the billions of data points that cross multiple disciplines (physics/geology/cosmology/archaeology) let’s see it. The world will be your oyster.


33 posted on 06/02/2014 2:09:11 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (AGW "Scientific method:" Draw your lines first, then plot your points)
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To: HandyDandy

>>Anything has to come from something. That is the problem that scientists now face. I was taught in grammar school science that nothing comes from nothing. <<

You were taught quantum physics in grammar school? Wow. They just taught me the basics. You must have had one heck of a science program. Did you study monopoles at recess?

>>Now scientists are saying everything came from nothing. The “big bang” and Jesus Christ came from the same “something”.<<

Please provide a link where that comparison is made in any scientific journal.


34 posted on 06/02/2014 2:12:41 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (AGW "Scientific method:" Draw your lines first, then plot your points)
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To: ruesrose

I’m surprised the muzzies haven’t claimed the big bang for themselves by why of the pedophile Mohamed.


35 posted on 06/02/2014 2:33:53 PM PDT by SgtHooper (This is not my tag!)
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To: 6SJ7; AdmSmith; AFPhys; Arkinsaw; allmost; aristotleman; autumnraine; backwoods-engineer; ...
Thanks SeekAndFind.


· List topics · post a topic · subscribe · Google ·

36 posted on 06/02/2014 3:18:05 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: freedumb2003
It should be easier to refute global warming than evolution, yet you can no more convince the consensus your little finger not withstanding, than I can convince the consensus about evolution.

Many have refuted macroevolution but the scientific consensus just shrugs and says okay maybe we were wrong on that individual point but the theory must still be true. The list of evolutionist claims that have been proved false is extremely long. Thus evolution is not falsifiable. Evolution is a belief system. It's dogma.

9 scientific facts that prove the theory of evolution is false

37 posted on 06/02/2014 3:34:16 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: SeekAndFind
But now we realize that Einstein was wrong about the spookiness of quantum physics.

Excellent point. The world has been looking for gravitational waves since at least the mid-50's. Robert Forward (Hughes Research Labs) built one of those big aluminum cylinder detectors that he housed in the UCLA Engineering building in that time-frame. Others may have preceded him.

That's a long time to look with ZERO results. If we have a theory of gravitational waves then we should have some idea of the magnitude of the phenomenon. If so then the requirements for detection should also be calculable. I'm no expert but your thought that maybe Einstein was wrong is sounding more and more like Occam's best guess.

38 posted on 06/02/2014 4:05:21 PM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: DannyTN

>>Many have refuted macroevolution but the scientific consensus just shrugs and says okay maybe we were wrong on that individual point but the theory must still be true. The list of evolutionist claims that have been proved false is extremely long. Thus evolution is not falsifiable. Evolution is a belief system. It’s dogma.<<

Links?

To reputable scientific sources.

And, if you can, provide scientific refutation. Not just “it has been refuted.”

Please provide specific scientific links that refute TToE.

But I will make it easier for you — provide a specific alternate Scientific Theory that explains the data. (hehe, you thought your straw man would just wander through the debris?)

Put up or shut up.


39 posted on 06/02/2014 5:43:01 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (AGW "Scientific method:" Draw your lines first, then plot your points)
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To: DannyTN

I forgot to thank you for that hilarious link of strawmen and so many other logical fallacies.

I had to check several times to see if it wasn’t The Onion.

The entire parody is disabled with one word: stochasticism.

But thanks for playing.

Your prize is development of things like cells that lock rather than change viruses, thus ending the ability to EVOLVE.

Or you can just die from your ignorance: your choice.


40 posted on 06/02/2014 5:51:07 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (AGW "Scientific method:" Draw your lines first, then plot your points)
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To: freedumb2003
"To reputable scientific sources

And there is the group think. You can't publish on intelligent design because no "reputable" scientific source wants to hear the competing theory. And since no "reputable" scientific theory publishes anything about intelligent design, it must not be scientific.

You believe what you want to believe. The sites are out there if you want to know the answers. My time is more important than to waste it on people who can't be convinced no matter what.

41 posted on 06/02/2014 6:07:48 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: freedumb2003

The idea that “nothing comes from nothing” predates the study of quantum physics. Maybe I didn’t first hear it in science class, but I it did first hear it in grammar school. During recess I experimented with gravity. Do you believe that something (the universe) came from nothing (pre-universe)?
Not sure about what you mean by “comparison”. Of course I can’t provide a link. I am shooting from the hip. Are you disagreeing that the bing bang theory is scientists practically saying that everything came from nothing?


42 posted on 06/02/2014 6:42:03 PM PDT by HandyDandy (Started out with Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff....)
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To: HandyDandy
"Are you disagreeing that the bing bang theory is scientists practically saying that everything came from nothing?"

Either everything came from nothing, or something has always existed. Do you have an alternative?

43 posted on 06/02/2014 8:07:38 PM PDT by mlo
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To: mlo

I believe that something has always existed. The Creator. Everything, as we are given to sense it with our five senses, was created by the Creator. If there was a Big Bang, it was His work. It may be a matter of terminology, but, for example, when FatherofFour posted “But the big bang, if it happened, is God’s creation. Something from nothing.” I agree with him on the first part, but disagree that it means “something from nothing”. I would argue that if the Big Bang is God’s creation then it is something from something (that something being God).


44 posted on 06/02/2014 9:24:51 PM PDT by HandyDandy (Started out with Burgundy but soon hit the harder stuff....)
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To: SeekAndFind

It looks like it’s possible that the original optimism around the “findings” of gravitational waves in the ripples in the background radiation might have been misplaced, that it was the effect of dust on the observations that was causing the results to be misinterpreted.

So what does that mean?

As far as the Big Bang goes, it means nothing. Those ripples were not part of the Big Bang theory, the evidence for which is in the background radiation itself, not the ripples. So the Big Bang survives this as a theory, which is no surprise.

What is in question here isn’t the Big Bang but the Theory of Cosmic Inflation. These ripples, as possible evidence of gravitational waves, were seen as strong support for Inflation.

Well, now that support (using these recent observations) is turning to dust, but that just means that these observations can’t be used as evidence for inflation... it does not mean they are evidence against inflation.

First of all, the jury is still out on just how much of this is dust and how much remains that just might actually be what the original interpretations said it was: evidence of gravity waves.

Second, bigger, better, more precise instrumentation is going to be trained on this subject — properly subtracting out the dust and properly getting the precise measurements required — to eventually be able to answer the question: Is there evidence of gravitational waves in the background radiation or not? And these improvements aren’t that many years away so the question will be answered fairly soon.

Third, even if no gravitational waves are found, that doesn’t mean the theory of inflation is dead. Before you kill inflation, you better come up with a credible alternative. You better come up with a theory that explains everything inflation explains but without the inflationary epoch to do it and as far as I know there are currently no credible alternatives out there. There are alternatives, but they all explain less than inflation does and they all introduce problems of their own.

Anyway, we might live in very depressing times as far as the crumbling of the Western and American Civilizations goes, but we certainly live in fascinating times if you consider what we are going to be finding out about our universe in the coming decades. Not just with regard to the background radiation, but in terms of being able to detect biological activity in atmospheres of exoplanets. It’s all good stuff. Too bad the situation here on earth is taking such a unenlightened turn. Scientific progress against a background of declining personal freedom. Bright lights in a collapsing cave.


45 posted on 06/03/2014 2:41:53 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: DannyTN

>>And there is the group think. You can’t publish on intelligent design because no “reputable” scientific source wants to hear the competing theory.<<

OK — provide a competing theory that meets all (heck any) criteria of a Scientific Theory. I ave invited you to do so several times.

As I said, if you can do so you will be the first to do so in 200 years and you will be rich beyond the dreams of avarice...


46 posted on 06/03/2014 2:48:31 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (AGW "Scientific method:" Draw your lines first, then plot your points)
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To: freedumb2003
"This most elegant system of the sun, planets, and comets could not have arisen without the design and dominion of an intelligent and powerful being. --Sir Isaac Newton, The Principia"

One of the best scientific minds of all time, but today's evo-idiots would say he's unscientific.

Is Intelligent Design Theory Scientific? Here's a good article, describing why the claims that Intelligent Design is not "scientific" fails miserably.

"Centuries ago the church was the ultimate authority, and dissenters from orthodoxy were excommunicated and punished for their supposed heresy. But science and the church have reversed positions in modern times, and secularized scientific institutions now have the upper hand. Scientists who deviate in their public writings or teachings from the prevailing naturalistic orthodoxy are now ostracized, ridiculed, and sometimes even denied tenure or research funding. Those dissenters are modern day Galileos who are standing up to the Neo-Darwinian dogma and the misleading attacks by its believers, who fear the truth just as the church did centuries ago." - conclusion from the above link.

47 posted on 06/03/2014 8:14:18 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: DannyTN

>>”This most elegant system of the sun, planets, and comets could not have arisen without the design and dominion of an intelligent and powerful being. —Sir Isaac Newton, The Principia”<<

Very colorful philosophy and I agree. Not science.

>>Here’s a good article, describing why the claims that Intelligent Design is not “scientific” fails miserably.<<

Well it is an article. Redefining science to include philosophy and discarding large parts of the Scientific Method, although fanciful, is not science.

Still waiting for an alternative to TToE that meets
the current definition. One that can actually be used.


48 posted on 06/03/2014 10:07:48 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (AGW "Scientific method:" Draw your lines first, then plot your points)
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To: HandyDandy

If something always existed then we can just say that the potentials for a Big Bang (whatever those are) always existed. A “god” is not a required step.


49 posted on 06/03/2014 10:59:28 AM PDT by mlo
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To: freedumb2003
Very cute. The current definition excludes all alternatives other than naturalism. Forensic scientists have no problem determining whether something was natural or designed. But when it comes to origin of species or origin of life the definitions are twisted to exclude anything but evolution.

Such closed mindedness to other alternatives does not suit science well. It's every much as big of an embarrassment as global warming. And you can't see it anymore than the global warming advocates can.

Science should be primarily about the pursuit of knowledge and applying the scientific method to confirm that knowledge. Science should not be limiting itself through arbitrarily applied definitions. And when it does limit itself, it's no longer science, it's dogma.

50 posted on 06/03/2014 12:15:07 PM PDT by DannyTN
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