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Earth-sized planet predicted beyond Pluto
Cosmos Magazine ^ | Friday, February 29, 2008 | Agence France-Presse

Posted on 03/20/2008 11:43:43 PM PDT by SunkenCiv

Japanese scientists believe another planet, up to two-thirds the size of Earth, is orbiting in the far reaches of the Solar System... "Because of the very cold temperature, its surface would be covered with ice, icy ammonia and methane," said lead researcher Tadashi Mukai. The study by Mukai and co-worker Patryk Lykawka will be published in the April issue of the Astronomical Journal. "The possibility is high that a yet unknown, planet-class celestial body, measuring 30 per cent to 70 per cent of the Earth's mass, exists in the outer edges of the Solar System," says a statement released by the University. "If research is conducted on a wide scale, the planet is likely to be discovered in less than 10 years," it claims. This Planet X -- so called by scientists as it is yet unfound -- would have an oblong elliptical solar orbit and circle the sun every thousand years, the team said, estimating its radius was 15 to 26 billion km... "In coming up with an explanation for the celestial bodies, we thought it would be most natural to assume the existence of a yet unknown planet," Mukai said. "Based on our hypothesis, we calculated how debris moved over the past four billion years. The result matched the actual movement of the celestial bodies we can observe now."

(Excerpt) Read more at cosmosmagazine.com ...


TOPICS: Astronomy; Science
KEYWORDS: astronomy; catastrophism; davidraup; johnmatese; nemesis; nibiru; planet10; planet12; science; tadashimukai; xplanets
Waiting in the wings: An artist's illustration showing a planet two-thirds the size of the Earth, which is believed by Japanese researchers to be in the outer reaches of the Solar System. Image: KOBE UNIVERSITY
Earth-sized planet predicted beyond Pluto

1 posted on 03/20/2008 11:43:44 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
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To: KevinDavis; annie laurie; garbageseeker; Knitting A Conundrum; Viking2002; Ernest_at_the_Beach; ...
Was going to use the following, but found a link to the CM article in his previous 'blog entry.
Planet X uncovered (again?) by Mike Brown, Saturday, March 15, 2008
 
X-Planets
· join · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post new topic ·

2 posted on 03/20/2008 11:46:08 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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The Search for Distant Objects in the Solar System Using Spacewatch
Astronomical Journal | volume 133 (2007) | Jeffrey A. Larsen et al
Posted on 03/12/2007 2:38:09 PM EDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1799615/posts

“Survey used a multiple-night detection scheme to extend our rate sensitivity to as low as 0.012 arcsec hr-1. When combined with our plate scale and flux sensitivity (V21), this survey was sensitive to Mars-sized objects out to 300 AU and Jupiter-sized planets out to 1200 AU... We found no large objects at low inclinations despite having sufficient sensitivity in both flux and rate to see them out as far as 1200 AU. For low inclinations, we can rule out more than one to two Pluto-sized objects out to 100 AU and one to two Mars-sized objects to 200 AU.”


3 posted on 03/20/2008 11:47:41 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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Comet’s course hints at mystery planet [ from 2001 ]
Govert Schilling | last updated February 5th, 2002 | Govert Schilling
Posted on 08/18/2006 5:36:59 PM EDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1686125/posts


4 posted on 03/20/2008 11:48:27 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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To: SunkenCiv; All

Makes me wonder about Uranus!


5 posted on 03/20/2008 11:55:49 PM PDT by notdownwidems (Shellback, pollywogs! 1980)
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To: notdownwidems
"Makes me wonder about Uranus!"

Hey!

Leave SunkenCiv alone!

That kind of perv talk just ain't kool on this website!!!

/giggle

6 posted on 03/21/2008 12:04:02 AM PDT by JDoutrider (No 2nd Amendment... Know Tyranny)
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To: SunkenCiv
Because of the very cold temperature, its surface would be covered with ice, icy ammonia and methane

Hmmm. I don't see how lack of heat produces water, methane and ammonia.

7 posted on 03/21/2008 12:38:10 AM PDT by Rudder (Klinton-Kool-Aid FReepers prefer spectacle over victory.)
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To: Rudder
Hmmm. I don't see how lack of heat produces water, methane and ammonia.

That wasn't claimed. But based on the fact that all the outer planets (except Pluto) are gas giants and many of them have moons that are covered with ice and methane slushes, it's not unreasonable to posit a planet that is even farther out than Pluto would be cold enough to be covered with ice, ammonia, and methane.
8 posted on 03/21/2008 1:08:03 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: notdownwidems
Makes me wonder about Uranus!

Thanks for asking.

Mine is not doing good today but last week I had a bad case of asstroids.

9 posted on 03/21/2008 1:32:59 AM PDT by trumandogz ("He is erratic. He is hotheaded. He loses his temper and it worries me." Sen Cochran on McCain)
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To: aruanan

I was joking a bit about the cold, but I did wonder where the chemicals came from, whether it was a gas or solid planet.


10 posted on 03/21/2008 1:50:28 AM PDT by Rudder (Klinton-Kool-Aid FReepers prefer spectacle over victory.)
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To: Rudder

At those temps, what we recognize as gases become solids.


11 posted on 03/21/2008 3:22:56 AM PDT by chopperman
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To: Rudder
The chemicals came from the same place all chemicals come from: exploding stars.

And there's evidence there was a big one in our neighborhood in the early days of our solar system.

Violent Past: Young sun withstood a supernova blast

A big bully pummeled our sun in its infancy, fatefully altering the composition and evolution of the solar system, a new study suggests. The heavy, in this case, was a nearby, massive star. First, the massive star pounded the young sun with fierce winds. Then, the tyrant exploded, blasting the sun with shock waves that suffused it and its embryonic planets with iron...
... and other elements as well.
12 posted on 03/21/2008 3:29:07 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: chopperman
At those temps, what we recognize as gases become solids.

For sure.

BTW, by solid planet, I meant like earth--iron as opposed to frozen gases.

13 posted on 03/21/2008 3:35:31 AM PDT by Rudder (Klinton-Kool-Aid FReepers prefer spectacle over victory.)
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To: samtheman

Neat.


14 posted on 03/21/2008 3:38:03 AM PDT by Rudder (Klinton-Kool-Aid FReepers prefer spectacle over victory.)
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To: SunkenCiv
With new, more advanced telescopes and new imaging satellites going up into space in the next 10-15 years, not only might we find an Earth-sized planet out in the Kuiper Belt, but possibly find a possible brown dwarf companion to our Sun.

But more exciting than these more "local" discoveries will be the possibility we may find rocky crust planets orbiting stars up to 250 light years away with an atmosphere of oxygen, nitrogen and water vapor--the first Earth-like planets outside our Solar System.

15 posted on 03/21/2008 6:47:03 AM PDT by RayChuang88
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To: SunkenCiv

Maybe we can buy global warming credits from this place.


16 posted on 03/21/2008 6:49:22 AM PDT by Larry Lucido (Still looking for UART at FX1050)
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To: Rudder; aruanan

aruanan’s right, the low temperatures make liquid methane possible, and keep (for example) the ammonia from doin’ stuff like leaving. That’s unlike the situation here, where temperatures are too high for that. Also, methane would easily combine with oxygen here to form CO2, H2O, whatever else. :’)


17 posted on 03/21/2008 7:39:54 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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To: notdownwidems; JDoutrider; trumandogz; samtheman; chopperman

“Why do we call hemmorhoids hemmorhoids and asteroids asteroids? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?” — Bob Schimmel

Rudder, re the composition of this hypothetical Mars-sized planet, something that size would be rocky, probably. But until there is an actual discovery, there’s no way to know. :’)

http://www.nineplanets.org/hypo.html#planetx

http://www.nineplanets.org/origin.html


18 posted on 03/21/2008 7:50:39 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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To: RayChuang88

The possibility of a brown dwarf companion has been raised and then “ruled out” a number of times, particularly since the Nemesis hypothesis emerged to try to make random asteroid strikes on Earth into something nice and uniform and predictable. So I give up. My own guess has been that there’s a largish planet but that its orbit is out of the ecliptic, and/or retrograde.


19 posted on 03/21/2008 7:50:46 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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To: Larry Lucido

That’s the first thing that’s made sense in this topic. ;’)


20 posted on 03/21/2008 7:50:53 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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http://www.nineplanets.org/hypo.html#nemesis


21 posted on 03/21/2008 7:53:25 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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To: SunkenCiv

Given that it was only within the last 15 years when telescopes with “larger” mirror sizes than the Hale telescope on Mount Palomar started to find planets beyond Pluto at least Pluto’s size, we’re still only at the beginning to finding a potential brown dwarf companion to our Sun. With new, more advanced satellites going up within the next few years, we may finally get the technology to find it.


22 posted on 03/21/2008 6:42:35 PM PDT by RayChuang88
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To: RayChuang88

The problem with finding it used to be that the various hypothesized locations were surveyed and nothing was found. IRAS covered quite a bit of the sky and didn’t find any telltale infrared. If the companion is in a polar orbit, it probably would be missed, an idea which came from the discoverer of Pluto, who continued to survey the skies for years after his discovery. Perhaps the construction of those big scopes in the Andes (the southern hemisphere having much less landmass and population, some of the sky had been neglected) and these orbital observatories will find something. Hey, if everything was known, there’d be no reason to build stuff like that.


23 posted on 03/22/2008 8:40:05 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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To: ForGod'sSake

http://www.nineplanets.org/hypo.html#nemesis

[snip] This hypothetical “death companion” of the Sun was suggested in 1985 by Daniel P. Whitmire and John J. Matese, Univ of Southern Louisiana. It has even received a name: Nemesis. One awkward fact of the Nemesis hypothesis is that there is no evidence whatever of a companion star of the Sun. It need not be very bright or very massive, a star much smaller and dimmer than the Sun would suffice, even a brown or a black dwarf (a planet-like body insufficiently massive to start “burning hydrogen” like a star). It is possible that this star already exists in one of the catalogues of dim stars without anyone having noted something peculiar, namely the enormous apparent motion of that star against the background of more distant stars (i.e. its parallax). If it should be found, few will doubt that it is the primary cause of periodic mass extinctions on Earth... However, since the examination of the entire sky in the far IR by IRAS with no “Nemesis” found, the existence of “Nemesis” is not very likely. [end]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1962278/posts?page=46#46

http://muller.lbl.gov/teaching/Physics10/Nemesis%20book/


24 posted on 03/22/2008 11:43:17 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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To: SunkenCiv

Could that be the origin of Farrakahn’s mother ship?


25 posted on 03/22/2008 11:44:52 AM PDT by Hot Tabasco (Monkey spanking is cruel......)
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To: Hot Tabasco

Not sure where that’s supposed to come from. :’)


26 posted on 03/22/2008 11:46:12 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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http://muller.lbl.gov/


27 posted on 03/22/2008 11:46:47 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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To: trumandogz
Mine is not doing good today but last week I had a bad case of asstroids.

Some gal in the UK just recently went in for leg surgery and had an anal transplant instead...........just a thought.

28 posted on 03/22/2008 11:49:02 AM PDT by Hot Tabasco (Congress needs to investigate the increasing disappearance of socks from washers)
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To: SunkenCiv

In Peter Thompkins book on the pyramids of Mexico, he says the complex is a model of the solar system with pyramids marking the location of the sun, moon earth and other planets.

There are ten planets so marked. The planet positions are scaled as I recall.

The old ones knew what we are now learning anew.

The book is Mysteries of the Mexican Pyramids.


29 posted on 03/22/2008 11:54:31 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . Never say never (there'll be a VP you'll like))
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To: SunkenCiv
The European Southern Observatory (ESO) was built at the Atacama Desert in Chile for these reasons: 1) They needed a modern observatory to cover the southern sky, 2) the location had some of the lowest interference from the refraction of the atmosphere due its high altitude and extremely low humidity and 3) the observatories could be reached from Europe in under a day's flight time. In fact, they're building even more telescopes at that location.

But now that new telescopes that can scan the entire sky from one location will come online within the next decade, and the launches of the Wide-Field Infrared Survey Explorer satellite, the ESA Herschel infrared satellite, and the James Webb Space Telescope should finally get the tools to prove or disprove if we have a brown dwarf companion to our Sun.

30 posted on 03/22/2008 8:10:02 PM PDT by RayChuang88
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To: bert

:’) Were the glyphs deciphered at the time PT wrote his book? Because it sounds like he was just speculating. There are Mayan glyphs for Venus, the Moon, the Sun, hmm, perhaps others; I don’t think there was any Mayan interest in or even knowledge of Uranus or Neptune, let alone Pluto.


31 posted on 03/22/2008 8:16:01 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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To: RayChuang88

Even if it’s not found, a bigger, better instrument will always be in the works. :’) There’s data suggesting the existence of a large unknown outer planet or more distant companion to the Sun, but the various theorists cite different data depending on what they theorize. ;’) In Britain I think it’s in vogue to just dump on all of it — one astronomer I think from there went so far to write that the planet X problem was psychological. And the Brits (and some NE US academics) also resist the idea of sudden mass extinctions due to impact, and there’s some overlap between that and Nemesis.


32 posted on 03/22/2008 8:26:35 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/______________________Profile updated Saturday, March 1, 2008)
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To: SunkenCiv

He was writing about Teotihuacan.

I don’t know about the timing with the Mayan glyphs.

The first edition is 1976.

I just looked on amazon and it is available used , hardcover cheap. I’m going to buy it, It is a great companion to his other book Secrets of the great Pyramid.

I bought the book Blam recommended Voyages of the Pyramid Builders. Tompkins books will be good paralllel reading.

I’m especially interested in the Thompkins treatment of the great pyramid and the very detailed measurements and theory of mensuration.


33 posted on 03/23/2008 4:57:33 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . Never say never (there'll be a VP you'll like))
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from the “tvf” keyword.

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/tvf/

Long-Destroyed Fifth Planet May Have Caused Lunar Cataclysm, Researchers Say
SPACE dot COM | 18 March 2002 | by Leonard David, Senior Space Writer
Posted on 03/25/2002 2:42:10 PM PST by vannrox
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/653287/posts

Far-out worlds, just waiting to be found
New Scientist | 23 July 2005 (issue date) | Stuart Clark
Posted on 07/20/2005 10:54:18 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1447339/posts

We’re going on a planet hunt
EurekAlert | 04/05/06 | Claire Bowles
Posted on 04/05/2006 7:53:38 PM PDT by KevinDavis
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1610016/posts

Neptune Might Have Captured Triton
Space.com on Yahoo | 5/10/06 | Sara Goudarzi
Posted on 05/10/2006 3:31:09 PM EDT by NormsRevenge
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1630007/posts

An Unknown Planet Orbits in the Outer Solar System
Great Neck Record (Anton Community Newspapers) | April 13, 2007 | Julian Kane
Posted on 08/05/2007 6:22:36 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1876853/posts

Jupiter Increases Risk Of Comet Strike On Earth
New Scientist | 8-24-2007 | David Shiga
Posted on 08/24/2007 1:21:38 PM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1886116/posts

Mystery of Saturn’s Two-Faced Moon Solved
space.com via Yahoo news | Tue Oct 9, 8:45 AM ET | Jeanna Bryner
Posted on 10/09/2007 3:31:36 PM EDT by martin_fierro
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1908803/posts

Did an ancient impact bowl Pluto over?
New Scientist | October 5, 2007 | Maggie McKee
Posted on 10/30/2007 7:29:02 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1918724/posts

Ancient impact may have bowled the Moon over
New Scientist | April 17, 2007 | David Powell
Posted on 10/30/2007 10:39:35 PM EDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1918728/posts

Rethinking Jupiter
Astrobio.net | Monday, November 12, 2007 | Lee Pullen
Posted on 11/12/2007 9:59:25 AM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1924617/posts


34 posted on 04/06/2008 8:43:07 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_____________________Profile updated Saturday, March 29, 2008)
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Title: An Outer Planet Beyond Pluto and Origin of the Trans-Neptunian Belt Architecture

Authors: Patryk Sofia Lykawka, Tadashi Mukai
(Submitted on 13 Dec 2007)
Abstract: Trans-Neptunian objects (TNOs) are remnants of a collisionally and dynamically evolved planetesimal disk in the outer solar system. This complex structure, known as the trans-Neptunian belt (or Edgeworth-Kuiper belt), can reveal important clues about disk properties, planet formation, and other evolutionary processes. In contrast to the predictions of accretion theory, TNOs exhibit surprisingly large eccentricities, e, and inclinations, i, which can be grouped into distinct dynamical classes. Several models have addressed the origin and orbital evolution of TNOs, but none have reproduced detailed observations, e.g., all dynamical classes and peculiar objects, or provided insightful predictions. Based on extensive simulations of planetesimal disks with the presence of the four giant planets and massive planetesimals, we propose that the orbital history of an outer planet with tenths of Earth's mass can explain the trans-Neptunian belt orbital structure. This massive body was likely scattered by one of the giant planets, which then stirred the primordial planetesimal disk to the levels observed at 40-50 AU and truncated it at about 48 AU before planet migration. The outer planet later acquired an inclined stable orbit (>100 AU; 20-40 deg) because of a resonant interaction with Neptune (an r:1 or r:2 resonance possibly coupled with the Kozai mechanism), guaranteeing the stability of the trans-Neptunian belt. Our model consistently reproduces the main features of each dynamical class with unprecedented detail; it also satisfies other constraints such as the current small total mass of the trans-Neptunian belt and Neptune's current orbit at 30.1 AU. We also provide observationally testable predictions.
Comments: 80 pages, 24 figures, 7 tables. Accepted for publication in The Astronomical Journal
Subjects: Astrophysics (astro-ph)
Journal reference: Astron.J.135:1161-1200,2008
DOI: 10.1088/0004-6256/135/4/1161
Cite as: arXiv:0712.2198 [astro-ph]
  (or arXiv:0712.2198v1 [astro-ph] for this version)

Submission history

From: Patryk Sofia Lykawka [view email]
[v1] Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:18:20 GMT (2795kb)

35 posted on 10/26/2013 4:15:19 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: SunkenCiv

Up to two-thirds the size of Earth is not “Earth-sized”

Predicted? Meaning they don’t really have any evidence


36 posted on 10/26/2013 4:18:05 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: notdownwidems
Makes me wonder about Uranus!

Nothing but problems since the last alien probe.........

37 posted on 10/26/2013 4:18:27 PM PDT by Hot Tabasco (Make sure you have removed the kleenex from your pockets before doing laundry)
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To: samtheman

*facepalm*

really, an exploding star is a “big bully”?

is this science for third graders?


38 posted on 10/26/2013 4:20:03 PM PDT by GeronL
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Japanese scientists eye mysterious ‘Planet X’
Scientists at a Japanese university said Thursday they believed another planet up to two-thirds the size of the Earth was orbiting in the far reaches of the solar system.
By AFP February 28, 2008 (same story, apparently)
http://www.canada.com/topics/technology/science/story.html?id=ad663127-e12a-4050-a59c-12c3253f99b6


39 posted on 10/26/2013 4:20:22 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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Waiting in the wings: An artist's illustration showing a planet two-thirds the size of the Earth, which is believed by Japanese researchers to be in the outer reaches of the Solar System. Image: KOBE UNIVERSITY
Earth-sized planet predicted beyond Pluto

40 posted on 10/26/2013 4:22:19 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: GeronL

Who sez up to 2/3rds isn’t Earth-sized, you? Big deal.

The evidence for an undiscovered outer solar system body consists of comet focusing (Matese et al); the large (Pluto-sized) bodies on very long, eccentric orbits (Brown et al); and the people in this article based their figures on a computer simulation based on retrocalculating the orbits of known bodies; others.

The perturbation of Neptune, detected not many years after discovery and the calculation of its ephemeris, has been attributed by some to a few bad observations, but that’s a minority view. My own minority view is, the perturbation was brief because the planetary body is either A) orbiting more or less in the ecliptic, but in retrograde, so everyone looking for it winds up looking in the wrong direction, or B) orbiting out of the ecliptic, and perhaps also in retrograde.


41 posted on 10/26/2013 9:15:04 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: SunkenCiv
The perturbation of Neptune, detected not many years after discovery and the calculation of its ephemeris....

I don't care what Neptune in the privacy of its own home and why are these pervs spying anyway?

42 posted on 10/26/2013 9:16:43 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: SunkenCiv

I totally flubbed that joke


43 posted on 10/26/2013 9:17:11 PM PDT by GeronL
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http://muller.lbl.gov/homepage.html#nemesis

http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm

http://muller.lbl.gov/papers/Lunar_impacts_Nemesis.pdf

http://muller.lbl.gov/papers/An_Adventure_in_Science.pdf


44 posted on 10/26/2013 9:18:29 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: GeronL

I still laughed! :’) Probably would work better with (you guessed it) Uranus.


45 posted on 10/26/2013 9:22:01 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: samtheman

We are stardust.
Billion year old carbon.
We are golden..


46 posted on 10/26/2013 9:22:24 PM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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Another consequence of a retrograde outer solar system body would be that it mitigates in favor of all other unknown solar system bodies having retrograde orbits, or having really elongated, kinda screwed up orbits (which has been observed in a few cases; plus all the comets).


47 posted on 10/26/2013 9:24:20 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: GeronL
Up to two-thirds the size of Earth is not “Earth-sized”

Then the article says between 30% to 70% the size of the Earth, so that would mean half the size of Earth if the theory is correct.

48 posted on 10/26/2013 9:24:59 PM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Seriously, I try to avoid Uranus.


49 posted on 10/26/2013 9:41:33 PM PDT by GeronL
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